Bloodied vs. Dying

[Alnag]

Hello,

I have a simple question here. If I am dying, am I still bloodied as well, or did I switched from bloodied to dying? To be more specific, will power like Consecrated Ground (cleric, PHB p. 65) heal me, if I am dying?

Thanks.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Yes I believe it does. See PHB p.295

 

[keterys]

Yeah, Consecrated Ground is... a bit broken in some circumstances, effectively removing the possibility of death in a lot of cases.

 

[Markn]

Our group believes the answer is no. Page 295 is not very explicit in stating that you are still bloodied when you are dying (that I can see anyways). If anything, when reading the example I tend to think it is more explicit the other way.

Like you, this issue came up strictly because of Consecrated Ground. Our group spent a long time looking at this one and decided that Dying people are not Bloodied. For us, it seemed the fairest way to look at this power - and so far that ruling hasn't burned us in any other manner so I think it is safe to view it as such without wrecking any other part of the game.

 

[Trevelyan]

The PHB isn't 100% clear, but it makes much more sense to regard a dying character as not being bloodied, especially for powers such as Consecrated Ground which can otherwise prevent death by anything other than huge damage in a single round (or taking out the cleric).

 

[Majushi]

Bloodied Value:​

​

​

​

​

You are bloodied when your current
hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower.
Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit
points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects
work only against a bloodied enemy or work better.

Now arguably, by a strict reading, you are bloodied while below or equal to your bloodied value.

Negative numbers are still below half your hit points.

While a little janky with stuff like Consecrated, I would argue that you're still bloodied while dying...​

 

[KarinsDad]

Exception based design.

The chart on page 293 does not indicate that maximum hit points, bloodied, and dying are mutually exclusive. It's just three definitions, not three states.

If a creature is dying and has hit points below its bloodied value, it is also bloodied. There are no rules to indicate that the creature changes from bloodied (which btw is not a condition) to dying (which is a condition).


Consecrated Ground is irrelevant to the rules question and is far from overpowered.

 

[keterys]

Exception based design.

Quite a phrase isn't it... but what did it have to do with the discussion?

That said, I do agree that you don't become unbloodied when you're dying - at least any more than you become undazed when you're stunned, or healed to full or reduced to 0 hp when knocked unconscious by Sleep.

Consecrated Ground is irrelevant to the rules question and is far from overpowered.

Its relevance is almost entirely because it is overpowered and people try to wriggle out from that by changing the bloodied/dying rules. Not something I agree with, though.

A far simpler fix would be something like changing it to give regeneration while bloodied and in it... since regeneration doesn't work at 0 hp, meaning that a cleric with it up is no longer nigh invincible.

 

[KarinsDad]

Quite a phrase isn't it... but what did it have to do with the discussion?

There is no exception to the bloodied <= half rule, hence, still bloodied when dying.

Its relevance is almost entirely because it is overpowered and people try to wriggle out from that by changing the bloodied/dying rules. Not something I agree with, though.

A far simpler fix would be something like changing it to give regeneration while bloodied and in it... since regeneration doesn't work at 0 hp, meaning that a cleric with it up is no longer nigh invincible.

Meh. It does less average damage than Flaming Sphere and can be moved less distance per round then Flaming Sphere and it doesn't scale well. To offset this, it can also heal allies and doesn't harm allies. A 5th level prayer about as powerful as a 1st level spell. In our game, PCs rarely fall unconscious, so making this change would affect the power only slightly.

It would take ~10 rounds for this power to kill one or more same level standard foes. It would take ~6 rounds to heal one or more allies from 0 to no longer bloodied.

Yup, it's potent. In our game, every Cleric has taken Spiritual Weapon due to the Combat Advantage it gives. Then again, we have always had a Rogue in the group. Spiritual Weapon helps take out foes quicker than Consecrated Ground and lowers the enemy action per round faster. Fewer foes remaining at higher hit points vs. many foes remaining at lower hit points.

 

[Markn]

In our game, PCs rarely fall unconscious, so making this change would affect the power only slightly.

This one sentence explains why this spell has very little value to you. As unconsciousness increases, so does the potentcy of this spell. It's essentially a get out of death/unconsciousness free card.

Thinking about it now though, I can see why it exists. In my other thread on the mechanics of death, many players cited the lack of healing triggers if there was only 1 leader in the group. That combined with story drivers pushing the group onwards tilted towards character death in the final encounter of the day. Consecrated ground doesn't need to use those surges and elegantly provides healing free of charge for 1 encounter. Strategically smart groups would save this spell for that kind of situation.

Having said that, consecrated ground seems a little rediculous or redundant when a group has a lot of healing and don't need to rely on it. Instead it becomes a "win the encounter" card without fear of death.

I'm not a big fan of the design but I think I can understand the intention behind it now so thats a positive.