Bloodied vs. Dying

[Nail]

There is no exception to the bloodied <= half rule, hence, still bloodied when dying.

Right.

Bloodied is clearly defined: "You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower." I'm not sure how this is ambiguous to some posters. If you are at negative hp, are your hps below your bloodied value? (A: Yep.)


Dying is clearly defined: "When your current hit points drop to 0 or lower, you fall unconscious and are dying." If you are at negative hp, are you dying? (A: Yep.)

So, if you are at negative hp, are you both Bloodied and Dying? (A: Yep.)

 

[MarkB]

Having said that, consecrated ground seems a little rediculous or redundant when a group has a lot of healing and don't need to rely on it. Instead it becomes a "win the encounter" card without fear of death.

Actually, I've played in a Leader-rich party (2 warlords, 1 cleric, plus a paladin in the mix) in which the cleric uses this power, and it's actually less impressive in that situation, simply because hardly anyone spends any significant time bloodied.

That being the case, the power simply becomes a mobile light-damage zone that doesn't hurt allies - a very nice little piece of battlefield-control, but not an encounter-breaker by any means.

 

[keterys]

There is no exception to the bloodied <= half rule, hence, still bloodied when dying.

Heh. For what it's worth, I just call that rules

To offset this, it can also heal allies and doesn't harm allies.

You act like these are meaningless benefits. The reason it's overpowered is because you can't largely die when you're in it. How well its damage compares to one of the best low level dailies is somewhat immaterial when that damage is potentially an after-thought of why people don't like it

Beyond the whole 'We mostly can't lose' aspect of it on deployment, it's really pretty good for healing the entire party up past half at the end of the combat too.

In our game, PCs rarely fall unconscious, so making this change would affect the power only slightly.

It removes the part that is broken about it - since you guys don't fight combats difficult enough to care about that broken aspect, you're already all set

Yup, it's potent. In our game, every Cleric has taken Spiritual Weapon due to the Combat Advantage it gives.

Yep, I've seen Weapon of the Gods be pretty popular in many circles too. The cleric does have some of the top dailies at that level, regardless.

Though it's not _exactly_ relevant, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of solos that a cleric with Consecrated Ground could actually solo. Basically depends a bit on whether it could crit for his bloodied value + heal value, I suspect. God would it be a boring fight, though.

 

[Markn]

Actually, I've played in a Leader-rich party (2 warlords, 1 cleric, plus a paladin in the mix) in which the cleric uses this power, and it's actually less impressive in that situation, simply because hardly anyone spends any significant time bloodied.

That being the case, the power simply becomes a mobile light-damage zone that doesn't hurt allies - a very nice little piece of battlefield-control, but not an encounter-breaker by any means.

I believe it still has an effect. It can take any encounter where the party has taken a lot of spread damage and effectively keep PCs going until the leaders have their chance to get to everyone. Tactically, it can be used to keep the tanks up, the strikers or controller in the back up and even though its a light mobile damage zone, it can be effective when its stacked with other PC powers that are in place, such as Rain of Steel, Flaming sphere. My group has hit on the idea of putting monsters into a world of hurt with multiple effects that trigger on the monsters turn. Individually it may not be powerful, but combining it with the other effects and the cumulative nature of its damage makes it a lot more effective than it first appears.

 

[Victim]

Yup, it's potent. In our game, every Cleric has taken Spiritual Weapon due to the Combat Advantage it gives. Then again, we have always had a Rogue in the group. Spiritual Weapon helps take out foes quicker than Consecrated Ground and lowers the enemy action per round faster. Fewer foes remaining at higher hit points vs. many foes remaining at lower hit points.

Spiritual Weapon? The Implement versus AC attack? I haven't found combat advantage to be that hard to get.

 

[subrosas]

Fun Facts!

(1) its effects occur at the start of each round, and it remains in effect until the end of the round in which the cleric does not maintain it. This means knocking a cleric out has no effect - its effect heals the cleric at the start of their turn, waking them, so that he or she can continue to maintain it

(2) its effects occur after ongoing damage is applied. Recently in a mid-paragon level game I was running the cleric had ongoing 20 damage for several rounds (bad luck on the saving throws). But it was basically a wash, as the damage the monsters could bring into play was insufficient to kill the cleric and thus was cleared each round (since healing begins at zero, anything less than a kill was meaningless). This meant that each round the cleric would drop, then immediately pop up and maintain the effect . It was absurd. In fact, ALL the characters were falling down and popping up all over the place!

Note that I'm not arguing that it's overpowered or anything. It was just pretty wacky to see in action!

There is no exception to the bloodied <= half rule, hence, still bloodied when dying.

Spurious logic: there is no exception to the bloodied <= half rule, hence, still bloodied when dead. Nor is any exception given saying dead characters cannot be healed, thus by bringing a dead character's hp over their bloodied total clearly they are returned to a dying state (as dying is explicitly defined as having negative hit points greater than a bloodied total). Which means this power can bring the dead back, right?

Bah, I'm probably missing something. Seriously can you show me where in the RAW it says that dead people can't be healed or that dead characters are no longer bloodied?

 

[Stalker0]

Honestly I'm starting to see more balance arguments in the rules forum than I like. I think threads talking about balance is fine, but I'm starting to see it as the argument for rules interpretations that are not...by the book.

This is one such example. Really there are two points being talked about on this thread:

1) Are you still bloodied when you fall below 0? Based on the rules, the answer is yes. Not a maybe, not even really up for interpretation, its one of those nice rules that actually tells you what it means. Bloodied is beneath half hit points, and there's nothing to override that...so you are absolutely bloodied when below 0.

2) Is consecrated ground a broken power? So we know exactly how the power works based on number 1, so from that the question can be better answered. Everyone will have their opinion. But I would highly recommend not changing your interpretation of 1 based on this power alone, as that ruling can have effects on other powers. Instead...rule it the correct way, and then modify the power if you feel it is broken.

 

[Caliban]

Bah, I'm probably missing something. Seriously can you show me where in the RAW it says that dead people can't be healed or that dead characters are no longer bloodied?

PHB, page 295, Healing the Dying

Note that when you are dying, any amount of healing brings above zero.

There is no such rule for when you are actually dead.

 

[subrosas]

PHB, page 295, Healing the Dying

Note that when you are dying, any amount of healing brings above zero.

There is no such rule for when you are actually dead.

So you are saying that healing should behave normally when applied to dead characters (not following the exception of raising hit points immediately above zero as in the special case of dying characters)?

Or are you saying that dead characters cannot be healed? Where in the actual rules is that written?

To be clear - I think that's absurd and clearly the intent is that characters who are dead cannot be healed. But I (and many others) also think its clear that dying and bloodied are intended to be two distinct and separate categories.

From Stalker0 above:

Bloodied is beneath half hit points, and there's nothing to override that...so you are absolutely bloodied when below 0.

So by this logic dead characters are healed not like dying characters, but like bloodied characters (since they are clearly no longer dying and are below half hit points)?

 

[Flipguarder]

I'm siding with Subrosas in this deal *puts up dukes* the way I've seen health status is like this

Not bloodied - above 50% hp
Bloodied - below 50% hp
dying - below 0 hp
dead - below-50% hp

I really don't understand why the second and third would overlap.