Bloodied vs. Dying

[brehobit]

I believe that RAW you can be bloodied and dieing. As statuses are by default independent (you can be slowed and immobilized for example), I don't see any other way to read it.

That said, I also believe that wasn't the intent (just cause it breaks a few things) and rule that they are exclusive states. But hey, that's what DMs are for...

 

[Markn]

Here is an example from the PHB, pg 295:

Example: Anvil, a dwarf fighter, has a maximum
hit point total of 53. He’s bloodied at 26 hit points,
dying at 0 hit points, and dead at –26 hit points. In a
fight with an umber hulk, Anvil is reduced to 18 hit
points. The monster later hits him for 33 points of
damage. This reduces Anvil’s current hit points to –15.
He’s now unconscious, dying, and only 11 points of
damage away from death.

Emphasis mine. You will note the example says dying at 0 HP's, not dying and bloodied. Thats a pretty strong indication that you aren't bloodied when dying.

 

[subrosas]

For those who argue that means that when you're dead (at or below negative bloodied or having failed 3 death saves) you are still bloodied and thus can be healed back to life - the character is no longer a valid target for healing - it's a corpse, an object - with a new HP pool that when depleted means the corpse is destroyed. That will usually never come into play, however, since destroying corpses usually happens out of combat and the specifics are generally handwaved.

I don't think anyone is actually arguing that - I put the idea forth as part of a reductio ad absurdum.

 

[Regicide]

Nail you are using the same fallacy Subrosas is talking about. The lack of a rule on bloodied status past dying does not in any way preclude that the rule is how you say it.

There is a rule, it's the bloodied rule. If your HPs are below half, you're bloodied. If there was supposed to be an exception to that rule, they'd have stated it.

 

[Nail]

Nail you are using the same fallacy Subrosas is talking about. The lack of a rule on bloodied status past dying does not in any way preclude that the rule is how you say it.

"The fallacy" is that a PC at negative hps does not have less than half his hps. There is no "lack of a rule" here.

Dying and bloodied are not mutually exclusive. In fact, most conditions in 4e are not mutually exclusive. If you think dying and bloodied are mutually exclusive, you must find a rule that says so.

For example, a PC can be both slowed and restrained. Just because she can't move (restrained) does not mean she is not also slowed. It's clear being restrained takes precedence, but the PC is still slowed.

A PC can be both bloodied and dying. Just because she is dying does not mean she is not also bloodied. If a Purple Worm has grabbed a PC who is now dying, I would expect the Purple Worm would be able to swallow her (as per the Purple Worm's Swallow ability).

Imagine the Purple Worm's surprise at being able to swallow a bloodied, but not a dying, foe!

 

[Markn]

Not to beat a dead horse, but don't you think in the example I provided, straight from the PHB, the author would have stated bloodied and dying if they meant that?

At this point, I don't really see how anyone can see it any other way. They even provide an example. Heck, even the last sentence says unconscious and dying. I don't see bloodied in that sentence. Thats pretty clear to me. If anyone wishes to try to counter this, I'd suggest you find an example in ANY 4e rulebook that shows bloodied and dying, otherwise as far as I can see, you are not following RAW.

 

[Regicide]

Not to beat a dead horse, but don't you think in the example I provided, straight from the PHB, the author would have stated bloodied and dying if they meant that?

At this point, I don't really see how anyone can see it any other way. They even provide an example. Heck, even the last sentence says unconscious and dying. I don't see bloodied in that sentence. Thats pretty clear to me. If anyone wishes to try to counter this, I'd suggest you find an example in ANY 4e rulebook that shows bloodied and dying, otherwise as far as I can see, you are not following RAW.

RAW are very clear, less than half HPs, bloodied. The fact that it wasn't stated in the example is irrelevant. They also didn't state the character was conscious when it wasn't dying either. Does that mean that there needs to be a rule made to say that when you're above 0 HPs youre conscious?

 

[Aenghus]

AFAIK there are a few ways now for a PC to remain conscious while dying. I think someone playing a dragonborn would argue strongly that they would benefit from their +1 to hit if they were dying but still conscious, claiming they were also bloodied, - ditto for dragonborn frenzy.

What do people think of this case?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

For me, the issue isn't that this power automatically heals people when they are bloodied, but the rule that any healing ends the dying process and lets the person jump back up.

My party just bought a Battle Standard of Healing, which basically creates a zone that heals every member of the party within that zone 1 HP - which is neat but not overpowering EXCEPT that it allows the players to basically be immune to death provided ONE of the party still has a healing trigger and an available surge.

I think I may need to talk to my players, as to me that's too powerful. I think I'll suggest a houserule that only healing that spends a healing surge (or counts as spending one) allows one to "heal from zero" - all other healing simply reduces the amount below zero and only allows a person to regain consciousness if healed out of the negatives.

 

[Regicide]

For me, the issue isn't that this power automatically heals people when they are bloodied, but the rule that any healing ends the dying process and lets the person jump back up.

My party just bought a Battle Standard of Healing, which basically creates a zone that heals every member of the party within that zone 1 HP - which is neat but not overpowering EXCEPT that it allows the players to basically be immune to death provided ONE of the party still has a healing trigger and an available surge.

The standard doesn't care if they're bloodied or not, and reviving the dying is practically it's only use. On top of that it takes a standard action to plant it then a healing surge needs to be spent and an enemy can always just pick it up and walk away with it. Without it reviving the dying it would be almost completely worthless.