Bluff Check - Feinting in combat ?

[mysticknight232]

You can make a feint check to gain CA in combat as a standard action. This seems useless to me and my group since A) you have to be trained in it and B) you can't even take advantage of it on your turn unless you use an action point. And considering that you can only try to feint once/encounter, I don't understand why this isn't a minor action, or a move action at most.

I'm wondering what other peoples opinions are on this and how other groups handle it, if different from the rules? Our parties battlemind is trained in bluff and wants to be able to use this more effectively since he was a gladiator (DS setting). We're looking at making this a move action, do people think this is broken considering you can only do it once/encounter?

 

[DracoSuave]

You are a defender who has access to multiple push/pull/slide at-will attack powers, and has an opportunity action that causes you to shift in response to a slide.

Why, oh god why, do you -care- about using Bluff to gain combat advantage?

Battleminds have tons of push, pull, slide, and shift powers, combat advantage is something that they just -do- by accident.

It's like, you're looking so hard for an answer to the combat advantage question that you'll take an answer made of duct tape because you can't see the one made of gold plated gold studded in diamonds.

 

[mysticknight232]

Push/pull/slide/shift is not the same as gaining CA, at least not as it pertains to this question. And to answer your question as to the why, it's a quirk he developed in his back story. He was also looking for skills that were useful outside of skill challenges and and we're short on melee guys so in this case, CA could help in certain situations.

In any case, for groups that use Bluff to feint in combat, how do you handle it? I'm guessing it doesn't come up very often because of the standard action.

Thanks for the opinions.

 

[Azlith]

You are a defender who has access to multiple push/pull/slide at-will attack powers, and has an opportunity action that causes you to shift in response to a slide.

And if you miss on that first attack to push/pull/slide your opponent into flanking, then you still don't have combat advantage. Combat advantage on that fist attack can make it easier to maintain combat advantage longer.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

In any case, for groups that use Bluff to feint in combat, how do you handle it? I'm guessing it doesn't come up very often because of the standard action.

Yeah, I've never seen Bluff to be used as a feint in combat.

I'd be amenable to making a skill power that lets you feint as a minor action, once per opponent per encounter. If you simply let creatures feint as a minor action, expect a lot of PCs to take Bluff, and be prepared to perform the maneuver on lot for the monsters. I feel that once an opponent has been tricked once, it won't fall for the trick again, which is why I have the per encounter limitation.

Related to feinting, one other thing I was thinking about is a "Fake Out" action. Basically, if a monster misses a PC, the PC could once per encounter use an immediate reaction to roll Bluff/Acrobatics to gain combat advantage on their next attack. I figure this would be like throwing an opponent off balance.

 

[mysticknight232]

Good suggestion regarding the skill power. We're just starting this campaign, so we're only lvl 1. I'm wondering if there isn't already a skill power that was introduced in the PHB3. I suggested to the player that he check into that, which might just solve all our problems.

Your suggestion on a miss was a good idea too. We're pondering with our DM right now actually on how best to implement his wishes. He's the only one trained in Bluff, so it won't be abused party wide, that's for sure.

 

[OnlineDM]

Battle Feint lets you use a Bluff check as a minor action to give an ally combat advantage. That's the closest option.

For what it's worth, I think your question is completely legitimate, even if the Battlemind does have forced movement powers. If he's trained in Bluff, he'd like the opportunity to do something cool in combat with it, and I think it's totally fair for you to want to find a way to make that happen without being over-powered. You could give him Battle Feint for free if you like, even making it apply to himself and not just an ally, but perhaps making it cost a move action (bobbing and weaving) instead of a minor. That doesn't feel over-powered to me, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Having to be trained in bluff isn't a penalty: bluff is a useful skill in general even if you never use this aspect.

Bluffing in combat is barely useful for a rogue, the king of benefiting from CA.

I can imagine scenarios where it might be useful, but they're few and far between.

But then again: where are the combat scenarios where diplomacy is useful? Or streetwise?

That said, a feat to take it down to a minor action (I think to be a good feat, it has to be a minor action or less) wouldn't be unbalanced.

 

[Johnnii]

Perfect Feint from MP2

 

[Caragaran]

I use Bluff check to gain CA all the time (with a rogue) I often need to take out some enemy artillery or controller while the defender and warlord are holding the line elsewhere. This isn't every fight but often enough that I am glad to have it(never mind it's a usefull skill out of combat).

The combat advantage lasts until the end of your next turn so you need a minor action attack (low Slash for me) to take advantage of it twice (once on the turn you bluff then again on you next turn). Really this is only useful if you really need combat advantage and can double it's effect with a minor action attack.