Book of Nine Swords -- okay?

[Felon]

Lets compare, because I think you are generalizing too much, 17th level:
Wizard: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1
Warblade: 6 manuevers readied for combat/4 stances known (only 1 can be used at a time, but switching between is a swift action)

Yes, he can get back his expended maneuvers with a swift action in combat, but can only make a single standard non-initiated attack in that round (or none at all). That turns out to be alot of missed DPS if I remember my fighter/barbarian comparisons correctly.

Hang on. Where does it say a warblade can't make iterative attacks? The warblade can recover his maneuvers as a swift action followed immediately by an attack, or he can wave sword around as a standard action. Don't mix the two up.

Not all of his 6 combat abilities are going to be just about damage either -- there are other actions he will likely have readied involving movement or improving ally abilities, etc, nor will the rest of his damage maneuvers come close to that level of damage.

You're absolutely right. We really shouldn't make this kitchen-sink cake-n'-eat-it-too nature of ToB is all about taking top place as party nuker. We should also point that disciplines hog other roles as well, including buffing and healing. Total overlap everywhere with no burnout. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. So broken.

 

[pawsplay]

The Warblade gets a few bonus feats from a restricted list. Nothing that boosts attack or damage output, so I consider their influence on damage dealing comparison's negligible. You can get things like Diehard, or Endurance.

In other words, someone was tossing out a smelly fish of a crimson hue.

 

[Felon]

Nevermind your conveniently ignoring the fact that the Warblade gets 7 feats over 20 levels and the Fighter gets 18. It makes a difference.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that he can take Power Attack and whatever other choice feats he wants. Since the whole contention about fighters being underpowered is that they run out of good feats to take, the warblade getting fewer feats shouldn't be a huge delimiter, just as long as he's got the good ones.

But yes, I would say that at high levels, the Warblade does edge out the straight fighter. But since I believe the fighter is underpowered already, I have no problem with that.

And as far as mages go, their tradeoff is insignificant at high levels. AC, Attack bonus, all of that doesn't really matter when you can turn incorporeal, invisible, fly, and drop multiple maximixed fireballs every single round. All without magic gear. And once the mage casts disjunction, the poor warrior class (fighter or warblade) doesn't even have magical gear anymore.

So many glaring, flawed generalizations. Where to begin? Hit points always matter, as does AC. Please explain "multiple maximized fireballs every round". If they're quickened, then we're talking 9th-level spells, which a wizard cannot in fact casually toss ad infinitum. And finally, all high-level characters have the means to fly or turn invisible; that's nothing special.

You want to talk broken. Spellcasters ARE broken. ToB helps to restore the balance.

ToB allows fighters to point at mages and say "look, I can match your damage output, and I can buff and heal, and I can do it all day long, and I can tank better than I ever could--at last, I'm your equal!". Some folks have a weird definition of balance.

 

[Felon]

The Warblade gets a few bonus feats from a restricted list. Nothing that boosts attack or damage output, so I consider their influence on damage dealing comparison's negligible. You can get things like Diehard, or Endurance.

In other words, someone was tossing out a smelly fish of a crimson hue.

First off, I think it's interesting that Dblade's assessment is that since the warblade's bonus feats don't directly boost attack or damage output, they're no big whoop.

Second, pawsplay: you don't even know what the list actually is, just taking Dblade's assessment on face value, so kindly spare me your hasty aspersions.

Third, last I checked, ToB classes still get feats at 1st and every 3rd level, allowing them to co-opt Power Attack, Improved Crit, and any of the other feats that were cited as allowing a fighter to do 100 pts of damage per round.

Fourth, allow me to point out the circle of sophistry at work here. When ToB is described as overpowered, there's a bit of self-serving shifting back and forth. One minute, it's not overpowered because a fighter already has capabilities that match a +100 damage maneuver--sheer child's play! The next minute, it's not overpowered because warrior classes were so underpowered to begin with and ToB's power boost finally allows them to inflict decent damage. Would you guys mind breaking up into separate camps, please?

 

[Victim]

Nevermind your conveniently ignoring the fact that the Warblade gets 7 feats over 20 levels and the Fighter gets 18. It makes a difference.

But yes, I would say that at high levels, the Warblade does edge out the straight fighter. But since I believe the fighter is underpowered already, I have no problem with that.

And as far as mages go, their tradeoff is insignificant at high levels. AC, Attack bonus, all of that doesn't really matter when you can turn incorporeal, invisible, fly, and drop multiple maximixed fireballs every single round. All without magic gear. And once the mage casts disjunction, the poor warrior class (fighter or warblade) doesn't even have magical gear anymore.

You want to talk broken. Spellcasters ARE broken. ToB helps to restore the balance.

Spellcasters do jack for single target damage, and vs foes warded with basic low level spells, their area damage isn't so great either. Oh no, 60 damage! Wait, if they save 1/2 the time, then it's 45 damage. Minus energy resistance; the 2nd level spell Resist Energy provides 30! resistance at 12th level.

IIRC, there was some debate in the other thread about whether or not the warblade using a swift action to recharge was allowed to take multiple attacks - I suspect differing opinions on this matter may result in differing opinions on the overpoweredness of the warblade.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Spellcasters do jack for single target damage,

Except they can instantly kill people with certain spells w/o having to make a "to hit" roll.

And I would hardly consider Disintegrate "jack" in terms of damage.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Wow, that's a lot of venom and vitriol spilling out up there. Jeez folks, careful you don't get any bile on the keyboard.

Look, fighters get shafted at high levels vs. casters. ToB Adepts are much more in line with the kind of fighter you would expect to be comparable to a high level caster. BUT, Adepts are also much more flavorful and probably more effective than a straight fighter. The Warblade is probably comparable to a barbarian between DR, movement, uncanny dodge, and greater/rage. Crusader and Paladin are basically comparable though less directly. The SwordSage is actually more monkish than fighter but lacks the really good specials of the monk class.

The problem is that they really do beat out a fighter for everything but flexibility and qualifying for PrCs. I think if you'd never seen a "fighter" then you'd think the Martial Adepts were the bees knees at keeping melees relevant to casters. However the martial adepts are as overpowered compared to fighters as Warmage is to sorceror.

Those who feel the Adepts bring melees in line with casters, feel good about being right. Those who feel the Adepts are out of line with fighters, feel good about being right. Now, secure in your own position, you should be able to discuss things without as much vehemence.

 

[Thurbane]

I think some people are missing a major point in the caster vs. meleer deabte here. Are casters more powerful than meleers at high levels? Yes, probably. But conversely, they are much, MUCH weaker than meleers at low levels.

At low - medium levels, a fighter can kick six different shades of sh*t outta a wizard or sorcerer, with their pathetic AC and low HP. I defy anyone to tell me that ALL classes are balanced at all levels. It's basically impossible for them to be, unless every class is the same.

Comparing a high level wizard and a high level fighter is like comparing a guy with a sniper rifle and a guy with a baseball bat. The sniper completely owns the baseballer in most situations, but in certain cicrumstances, like when he is out of ammo or up close and personal, the sniper is gonna get the tar beaten out of him.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Comparing a high level wizard and a high level fighter is like comparing a guy with a sniper rifle and a guy with a baseball bat. The sniper completely owns the baseballer in most situations, but in certain cicrumstances, like when he is out of ammo or up close and personal, the sniper is gonna get the tar beaten out of him.

Jump on Halo2 and I can show you a sniper that is good up close

 

[Sithobi1]

Hang on. Where does it say a warblade can't make iterative attacks? The warblade can recover his maneuvers as a swift action followed immediately by an attack, or he can wave sword around as a standard action. Don't mix the two up.

Followed by a standard action to attack. He can't make a full attack during the round when he recovers his maneuvers.