Born of the Three Thunders + Spells w/ durations

[gamecat]

Born of the Three Thunders, as printed in Complete Arcane, gives a damaging [electricity] or [sonic] spell the ability to stun and trip those who fail additional saves, at the cost of dazing the caster for a round.

With the iconic Lightning Bolt or Shout, it's fairly cut and dry - damage, ref half, save to avoid stunning, save to avoid tripping if stunned.

Now, what about a spell like Lightning Ring from Spell Compendium? This spell has a duration - does Born of the Three Thunders daze you as normal when you cast it, but afterwards, you're a veritable Thor dispensing stunning-knockdown-free action lightning bolts?

What if a crafty bard casts a Sonic Weapon of the Three Thunders - does this make his rapier stun and trip with each poke for one minute per level?

Or does Three Thunders only kick in it's effect on the turn you cast it, as could be interpreted from the rules writeup of it?
Iunno - you tell me.

 

[udalrich]

I can't look at the actual text of the rule, but from a balance perspective, I would expect one of two things. Either the stunning and tripping only happens in the first round or each round where there is stunning and tripping, the caster is also dazed.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

The text of the Born of Three Thunders feat states, "In addition, the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that ..."

I read this as stating that the stun / knockdown effect only applies once, when the spell ends. I would probably also apply the daze effect to the caster on the round after the spell's duration ends.

 

[gamecat]

The text of the Born of Three Thunders feat states, "In addition, the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that ..."

I read this as stating that the stun / knockdown effect only applies once, when the spell ends. I would probably also apply the daze effect to the caster on the round after the spell's duration ends.

Someone in my group pointed that wording out.

And it's this I hate as it feels like we're just mincing words - couldn't one just as easily argue that it's the conclusion of the casting of said spell that brings this thunderclap about?

Personally, if turning the WAHOO factor of this down it's what's necessary, I'd have the extra effect and the daze happen after it's cast, and then it'd be Lightning Ring or Sonic Weapon as normal thereafter.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I suppose that it could work that way. To me, it feels like the intention is for the special effect to happen once. Subjects damaged by the spell are possibly stunned and knocked prone once, and the caster is dazed once. With that in mind, I think it would be beneficial for that extra effect to take place at the end of the spell. Particularly with sonic weapon, since you'd get more opportunities to damage different creatures before setting them up the bomb. Also, being dazed for the second round of a multi-round spell would kind of blow.

 

[Runestar]

One could argue that lightning ring is not a valid recipient of the born of 3 thunders feat since it technically does not deal any damage directly, it simply creates a lightning ring which lets you later deal damage with it.

The same reason why a maximized summon monster spell does not bring in a creature with max hp/damage - that is not a direct effect of the spell.

So to benefit from said feat, the spell should immediately deal damage directly at the time of casting.

 

[gamecat]

I suppose that it could work that way. To me, it feels like the intention is for the special effect to happen once. Subjects damaged by the spell are possibly stunned and knocked prone once, and the caster is dazed once. With that in mind, I think it would be beneficial for that extra effect to take place at the end of the spell. Particularly with sonic weapon, since you'd get more opportunities to damage different creatures before setting them up the bomb. Also, being dazed for the second round of a multi-round spell would kind of blow.

Yeah, that's why I posted - I don't think the designers had spells with durations longer than instantaneous in mind when they wrote this.

As to showing up when cast, I imagine the caster's lightning appearing with the three thunders energy, not disappearing with it, but it looks like we're into house rule territory anyway.

One could argue that lightning ring is not a valid recipient of the born of 3 thunders feat since it technically does not deal any damage directly, it simply creates a lightning ring which lets you later deal damage with it.

The same reason why a maximized summon monster spell does not bring in a creature with max hp/damage - that is not a direct effect of the spell.

So to benefit from said feat, the spell should immediately deal damage directly at the time of casting.

Well, couldn't one extrapolate that to a casting of Lightning Bolt only creates the bolt of lightning? Where is the effect of the spell divorced from the casting of it?

A stipulation of instantaneous-only duration spells might be in order, but I like the at-the-moment-of-casting timing.

 

[Runestar]

Well, couldn't one extrapolate that to a casting of Lightning Bolt only creates the bolt of lightning? Where is the effect of the spell divorced from the casting of it?

The distinction is that no further action is required on part of the caster to deal the damage.

When you cast lightning bolt, you directly deal 10d6 (say) damage to the target.

When you summon a monster, you still need to command the monster to attack. The monster still needs to move and make attack rolls as necessary. The monster itself does no damage simply by virtue of being there.

Same for lightning ring. Casting it only brings a halo into existance, and you still need to spend a free action each round directing it.

In the same vein, I would argue that a maximized lightning ring spell does nothing for the lightning damage dealt by the bolts or adjacent damage either.