Brawler Style and Spiked Gauntlets

[ShaggySpellsword]

I posted this rules question over at the other message board I frequent this morning, but I didn't get as complete or authoritative an answer as I'd like:

I was tinkering with a Warforged Brawler and a question occured to me:

If my fighter with the Brawler Style Talent fights with 2 spiked gauntlets and has the 2-weapon defense feat, what happens?

A. Does he get +1 AC, +2 Fortitude, and +1 Shield to AC and Reflex because he wields a weapon in his primary hand (spiked gauntlet) and his off hand is free (unarmed weapon), but also has an off-hand weapon. (aka Spiked Gauntlets always count as both wielding a weapon in the hand and NOT wielding a weapon in the hand)

B. Does he get a +1 Shield to AC and Reflex because he is wielding 2 weapons, thus disqualifying himself from having a "free" off-hand for Brawler Style? (aka Spiked Gauntlets always count as a weapon and never as a "free" hand. This seems to be directly opposed to the intention of the Brawler build's options. This is what the (admittedly, not authoritative) character builder does.)

C. Does he get nothing because he has no weapon in his main hand, disqualifying him from Brawler, and no weapon in either hand, disqualifying him from 2-weapon defense (aka Spiked Gauntlets don't ever count as wielding a weapon)

The issues:
1. Does wearing a Spiked Gauntlet count as "holding a melee weapon"?
2. Does wearing a Spiked Gauntlet count as "wielding a weapon in your primary hand"?
3. Does wearing a Spiked Gauntlet count as your "off-hand" being "free"?

Relevant Rules text (From Character Builder):
Two Weapon Defense While holding a melee weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex.
Brawler Style While you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free or grabbing a creature, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Fortitude
Spiked Gauntlet Simple Melee/Group: Unarmed/Properties: Off-Hand

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As soon as your gauntlet is magical your hand is free in character builder... as it is now, per rules, a hand slot item.
Actually i guess the intend is, that gauntlets always count as hand free...

 

[Initiate]

The way My group read into it was that each hand was a different weapon. So it only made sense that our brawler could take the two-weapon fighting feats.

 

[knightofround]

B is the correct answer, per RAW. You might be able to get your DM to houserule A. It's not like spiked gauntlets are crazy overpowered anyway. (But keep in mind they're spiked *gauntlets*, not gloves, so its kinda unrealistic to expect to fight with them while holding stuff)

They didn't make the brawler style verbiage very clear...we have to look at the swordmage warding verbiage to figure out what "hand free" actually means:

...bonus if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).

So holding anything in your offhand causes you to lose out on the brawler style AC and Fort bonuses. That includes shortswords, potions, candy, clovers, and, yes, spiked gauntlets too. That hand's gotta be nekid

But the bizzare thing is that you still get the brawler style attack roll bonuses with 2x spiked gauntlet...which is pretty funny tbh. It should be the other way around imo; I would think that if I'm wearing these big honking mitts on both hands it would be more difficult for me to grab my target, but not more difficult to defend myself.

The magic item slot move from primary to hand is stupid too, I didn't notice that...it makes an already weak weapon even weaker. Are there even any weapon enhancements designed especially for gauntlets?

 

[Kitesh]

The side bar on page 6 of Martial Power 2 states, "Your hand is
free if you wear a spiked gauntlet (Adventurer's Vault, pages 9-10),
even if you use the gauntlet to attack during your turn."

 

[Wednesday Boy]

The issues:
1. Does wearing a Spiked Gauntlet count as "holding a melee weapon"?
2. Does wearing a Spiked Gauntlet count as "wielding a weapon in your primary hand"?
3. Does wearing a Spiked Gauntlet count as your "off-hand" being "free"?

The Brawler Style class feature says "While you wield a weapon in your primary hand and your off hand is free (see the sidebar), you gain a +1 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to fortitude. "

The sidebar reads:
"Many fighter powers require a hand free. For your hand to be considered free, you can't be using it for anything else -- that means no off-hand weapons (except a spiked gauntlet), no two handed weapons, no shields, and no items, such as sunrods or lanterns."

So I think for your questions:
1 & 2. You're holding/wielding melee weapons in both hands because spiked gauntlets are weapons that you're wielding.
3. The sidebar indicates that spiked gauntlets are exceptions that let your hand be considered free.

So I think you get A.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

The magic item slot move from primary to hand is stupid too, I didn't notice that...it makes an already weak weapon even weaker. Are there even any weapon enhancements designed especially for gauntlets?

It is disappointing that hand items can't be used with enchanted spiked gauntlets because many hand items affect grabs. I guess that's why the brawler gets an enhancement bonus for unarmed attacks?

The Adventure's Vault 1 has the Tigerclaw Gauntlets that are only for spiked gauntlets.