Bringing about socio-religious change

[Tuerny]

Alright one of my PCs is playing a foreigner (from a more typical fantasy continent) to the main continent upon which I am running my campaign, which is based on Ancient India with religions that roughly translate to Buddhism, Hinduism, and Tibetan Buddhism.

He has decided that the religion, which is tightly integrated into the socio-political structure of the continent, is evil and corrupt and that it must be destroyed to ensure that the continent doesn't eventually be consumed with "evil" and tyranny.

He has yet to come up with a plan, and would probably be ultimately doomed to fail but this is the kind of thing great campaigns are made from, and I would like to allow him at least a small chance to succeed.

My question for you is, how do you think he could successfully go about doing this? What sort of opposition would he face (beyond that from the typical religious and secular authorities)? How would I run this campaign so it seems challanging yet he is still able to bring about the changes he desires?

Jesse D.

 

[Tonguez]

He needs backing and that means he needs to find out about and try to join a sect of like minded individuals who also beleive the State religion is evil and corrupt.

So he now has two conflict areas
1. The State and Religious authorities whom he is trying to bring down and who have declared him a dangerous heretic and foreign devil

2. The Heretical Sect who he is trying to join. He is already a foreigner and thus not to be trusted, and he is trying to join a group which is probably persecuted by the authorities and suspicious of outsiders - how does he gain their trust?, what role does he have within the organisation? and what about the rivalries that arise?

Once he has the backing of the Heresy they will then need to start trying to drum up support from the common folk and maybe if their lucky also get support from within the state/religious authority (a Priest who has seen the light perhaps or a high ranking Courtesan who supports their cause).

 

[Tuerny]

Hmmm... sounds like a plan. The only problem that I see is that all the heretical groups that are detailed in the setting thus far are of rival religions. He dislikes <i>all</i> of the native religions. Also they are going to need to find someone a bit more influential than a native courtesan considering that this is more of an empire than a kingdom.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Kilmore]

Check out the stories of St. Peter, Martin Luther, Muhammed, and Bhudda. They're the main ones I think of when thinking about what the player is trying. BTW, good character concept.

 

[Sharack Bladestorm]

Religion vs Religion

Hey all,

Does your Hero/Player have the support of his diety/religion in this endeavour? Perhaps they can give him the means of being able, through miracle or act or such, to gain follows to his side. Then you can have the growth of his support/followers assist him in combating the present religions. The strength of influence can wax or wane depending on his actions and those actions of those competing against him. And eventually it can move into a mystical and ugly sort of all out diety vs diety affair (if you have the religions having separate dieties, if they are just shades of the same source, then this may not work... ).

Ciao,
Sharack

 

[fusangite]

Well, considering that absolutely nothing has been able to overthrow the social order the Aryans imposed on India 3000 years ago, it would need to be a pretty amazing plan. Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Marxism, Capitalism, etc. have all basically been absorbed into the Hindu framework which is incredibly resilient. Thus, even though those of us outside India think of the caste system as a Hindu thing, all of these religions have adopted it; similarly, the patronage of local gods has been integrated into these monotheistic faiths in India as well. I would need to see an incredibly compelling argument for how one could take down the Hindu system's basic features (ie. caste, polytheism, etc.) because so far, no one in the real world has managed to make a dent.

To understand what I'm getting at a bit better, I might recommend the following two books: Changing India by Robert W. Stern and Saints, Goddesses and Kings: Muslims and Christians in South Indian Society 1700-1900 by Susan Bayly.

Remember that the authority structure of Hinduism is radically different than any other extant religion -- it is a robust, decentralized, profoundly hierarchical heterodox system far more adaptive than any Western polytheistic model.

 

[Tuerny]

Well, considering that absolutely nothing has been able to overthrow the social order the Aryans imposed on India 3000 years ago, it would need to be a pretty amazing plan. Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Marxism, Capitalism, etc. have all basically been absorbed into the Hindu framework which is incredibly resilient. Thus, even though those of us outside India think of the caste system as a Hindu thing, all of these religions have adopted it; similarly, the patronage of local gods has been integrated into these monotheistic faiths in India as well. I would need to see an incredibly compelling argument for how one could take down the Hindu system's basic features (ie. caste, polytheism, etc.) because so far, no one in the real world has managed to make a dent.

To understand what I'm getting at a bit better, I might recommend the following two books: Changing India by Robert W. Stern and Saints, Goddesses and Kings: Muslims and Christians in South Indian Society 1700-1900 by Susan Bayly.

Remember that the authority structure of Hinduism is radically different than any other extant religion -- it is a robust, decentralized, profoundly hierarchical heterodox system far more adaptive than any Western polytheistic model.

Hmmm, that is a very good point and some good advice.
I was kind of thinking the same thing. He started talking about how the religion was evil and needed to be brought down, and I was trying to figure out how a single, foreign individual could actually do anything about it. Also, he doesn't really seem to be viewing this whole situation in an absolutist good vs. evil D&D way (I am actually using AU for the mechanical bits), but more of a "how they are doing this is wrong" sort of way. He is sort of modelling his character after the main character of one of Ayn Rand's novels. I am not sure which one though, as I haven't read any of her books. So he sees the collectivism, the focus on reincarnation, etc. as signs that the religion is "wrong"

Also, I am not sure if I have been doing a very good job, as a Westerner, in expressing the caste structure of an India-based society very well. Especially when dealing with interactions between the castes and dealing with a multi-caste adventuring party. Do you have any suggestions on how I could handle that?

 

[Tuerny]

Hey all,

Does your Hero/Player have the support of his diety/religion in this endeavour? Perhaps they can give him the means of being able, through miracle or act or such, to gain follows to his side. Then you can have the growth of his support/followers assist him in combating the present religions. The strength of influence can wax or wane depending on his actions and those actions of those competing against him. And eventually it can move into a mystical and ugly sort of all out diety vs diety affair (if you have the religions having separate dieties, if they are just shades of the same source, then this may not work... ).

Ciao,
Sharack

Ah well, he really isn't that religious of a character. I pointed out to him that to bring down a socio-religious structure he will need a new one to replace it. He hasn't really responded to that yet.

 

[fusangite]

Tuerny says,

Hmmm, that is a very good point and some good advice.
I was kind of thinking the same thing. He started talking about how the religion was evil and needed to be brought down, and I was trying to figure out how a single, foreign individual could actually do anything about it. He is sort of modelling his character after the main character of one of Ayn Rand's novels. I am not sure which one though, as I haven't read any of her books. So he sees the collectivism, the focus on reincarnation, etc. as signs that the religion is "wrong"

First of all, I would argue that Objectivism (Rand's philosophy) would be viewed as completely absurd outside of a capitalist society. I cannot imagine the character who believes in these ideas to actually be in a majority anywhere. Basically, even if the society from which he comes is a proto-capitalist society like the Netherlands in the 16th century, his religion/philosophy would be, at best, an incredibly weird fringe cult at the margins of society. So, I'm not sure how reasonable it would be for him to expect to convert the majority in a new culture to his ideas when it's likely that his church/philosophy has failed to convert the majority in the culture he comes from.

Also, he doesn't really seem to be viewing this whole situation in an absolutist good vs. evil D&D way (I am actually using AU for the mechanical bits), but more of a "how they are doing this is wrong" sort of way.

I don't know what AU says about the good-evil mechanic. Can you give me a little info on that?

Also, I am not sure if I have been doing a very good job, as a Westerner, in expressing the caste structure of an India-based society very well. Especially when dealing with interactions between the castes and dealing with a multi-caste adventuring party. Do you have any suggestions on how I could handle that?

Well, I don't know how good your knowledge base is here. We are taught very little about India in the West. I have only gained insight after taking a phenomenally good course on India this summer. The first thing to do is recognize that "caste" maps to two different terms in India which are conflated into the caste system: jati and varna. Most people know about the varna part but not the jati part.

The varna is the standard 4/5 caste system which corresponds surprisingly closely to the estates system of early modern Europe. There are two categories of varna: the twice-born (actually meaning more than once born) and the once-born. The top three castes are twice-born: brahmins (priests), ksatriyahs (warriors/rulers), vaishiya (merchants/entrepreneurs). Interaction amongst these castes is pretty common; although people do not marry across these castes typically, the groups do work together with relative ease. The once born are either all shudras if you are running caste based strictly on the vedic texts or are divided into shudras (labourers/peasants) and panchamas (untouchables/people who work in unclean occupations). There are real problems with twice-born working with once-born castes and there is a problem with anyone working with untouchables.

Ok... that was the easy part.

A jati is a group of people associated generally with the same occupation in a particular region. Thus, there could be a jati based around collecting tribute for a local ruler. This jati might originally have been considered to be part of of vaishiya varna; however, over time, this group might have used its wealth from tax farming to purchase land (a criterion to be recognized as a ksatriyah); similarly, as local peasants resisted, this caste of minor bureaucrats and criers might have needed to arm themselves to ensure that they collected taxes. The jati might then, to reflect its new prestige, have begun styling itself part of the more prestigious ksatriyah varna; some people might see the jati as part of its new self-proclaimed identity while others, likely including the existing ksatriyah jatis, might contest this attempt. Such conflicts are often, to some degree, arbitrated by brahmins.

So, here's what I need to know from you:
(a) are you playing with just varna or are you working with jatitoo?
(b) if you aren't playing with jati, do you want to?
(c) what is the varna and jati makeup of the adventuring party right now?
(d) how different is your varna model from the actual Indian one? It seems like one could vary it quite a bit, provided one retains the basic concept.

 

[Tuerny]

Tuerny says,



First of all, I would argue that Objectivism (Rand's philosophy) would be viewed as completely absurd outside of a capitalist society. I cannot imagine the character who believes in these ideas to actually be in a majority anywhere. Basically, even if the society from which he comes is a proto-capitalist society like the Netherlands in the 16th century, his religion/philosophy would be, at best, an incredibly weird fringe cult at the margins of society. So, I'm not sure how reasonable it would be for him to expect to convert the majority in a new culture to his ideas when it's likely that his church/philosophy has failed to convert the majority in the culture he comes from.

Can you give me an example of what sort of arguments the natives would use against him?

I don't know what AU says about the good-evil mechanic. Can you give me a little info on that?

AU lacks a good-evil mechanic, basically. There is no alignment system.

A jati is a group of people associated generally with the same occupation in a particular region. Thus, there could be a jati based around collecting tribute for a local ruler. This jati might originally have been considered to be part of of vaishiya varna; however, over time, this group might have used its wealth from tax farming to purchase land (a criterion to be recognized as a ksatriyah); similarly, as local peasants resisted, this caste of minor bureaucrats and criers might have needed to arm themselves to ensure that they collected taxes. The jati might then, to reflect its new prestige, have begun styling itself part of the more prestigious ksatriyah varna; some people might see the jati as part of its new self-proclaimed identity while others, likely including the existing ksatriyah jatis, might contest this attempt. Such conflicts are often, to some degree, arbitrated by brahmins.

So, here's what I need to know from you:
(a) are you playing with just varna or are you working with jatitoo?
(b) if you aren't playing with jati, do you want to?
(c) what is the varna and jati makeup of the adventuring party right now?
(d) how different is your varna model from the actual Indian one? It seems like one could vary it quite a bit, provided one retains the basic concept.

I am running this campaign out of the playtest notes of a soon to be published setting. It has the concept of varna but not jati.
The varna is virtually identical. However, members of certain character classes are considered to be higher ranked within the different castes than others. The group's ksatriya are both considered to be high-ranked ksatriya. Most of the group is currently associated with a religious philosophy called Sujhunism (I am probably misspelling that), which is similar to Buddhism and believes that one can escape Samsara in one lifetime, rather than requiring the numerous lifetimes of reincarnation that the Matyanists (the more Hinduish religion) espouse. Matyanism is a much more dominant religion, but Sujhanism (which is associated with psionic development) has made very strong inroads into the culture.

The group consists of a brahmin, 2 ksatriya, a vaishiya, and 2 cultural outsiders (one is from a Tibet-like region and follows their brand of Suhjanism), the last is the outsider who is the basis of this post.