Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?

[nharwell]

IMC, this tactic doesn't work because scry doesn't give enough info for clear teleportation. I don't consider this a house-rule so much as a clarification of existing rules.

From the SRD:

Teleport:

The character must have some clear idea of the location and layoutt of the destination. The character can’t simply teleport to the warlord’s tent if the character don’t know where that tent is, what it looks like, or what’s in it. The clearer the character's mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energies may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.

and

Scrying:

The character can see and hear a creature, who may be at any distance... This spell creates a magical sensor located near the subject.

So IMC, scrying can give you information on the target (what he's doing, saying, etc.), but not so much on where he is. In other words, you have a clear view of the target but not necessarily what's around him. Now I don't think it's unreasonable that many people interpret Scrying as giving enough info to teleport, but I think that mine is just as valid, given the spell descriptions.

 

[Gator]

Two Words: Material Components.


You want to Buff, Scry, and Port, fine by me. Better have all those nifty components for each time you do it. And if you can do it, the chances that whatever you're fighting can do it too, are pretty high



That's just me though

 

[Axeboy]

In-game changes?

A lot of people have suggested metagame solutions (changing the way the spells themselves work), and that's fine--it's according to your taste how you rule zero. I disagree (sort of) with KidC when she says that you shouldn't punish the players for being creative: if you've been playing it the way it's written and the DM suddenly changes the rules on you because it's working too well, that's certainly unfair to the PC's, but if you know that buffscrytel has limitations by the time you're first able to do it, I think we can all agree (by the Sacred Axiom of Rule Zero) that the DM's not hosing the players in any way.

This may sound a bit pedantic, but I'd be interested to hear about any societal changes folks use to deal with buffscrytel the way it's written. Do all mages (of necessary ability) have quickened dispels/teleports/whatevers ready every day? Just the paranoid types? Do they routinely cast Non-detections (and thus sacrifice those spell slots)? Are they constantly buffed with Persistent Spells (same problem, but the stuff now takes a higher-level slot)? What other sorts of precautions might high-level mages take? Wouldn't you, as a high-level mage, want to research a spell to counter this strategy so that you wouldn't have to waste all those slots (or are those spells useful anyway)? If you would research a counter, why haven't mages done so in the past?

Are there changes in the magical community at large? Perhaps something like the Injunction from Sepluchrave II's story hour that keeps mages from interfering with political affairs for fear of retribution from the whole community of mages; a sort of `nuclear showdown' (or Great Convention, from Dune): if you do it to one of our number, we'll all come after you. (This would be rather interesting as it would bring up the same sorts of pre-emptive-strike-type problems that are in RL international politics right now: powerful mages trying to keep certain powers from folks they don't trust.)

 

[The Souljourner]

The question is, what's the difference between teleport and just plain walking up to them and slaughtering them? Assuming you can scry them to figure out where they are, you can go there through mundane means, buff, attack. This is a very common PC tactic.

I don't really see what the difference is. Sure, the Scarlet brotherhood can summon up some demons and send them after the party. If the Brotherhood is so powerful that they can summon up demons that can instantly slaughter the party, then the party should do everything it can to keep them from knowing who they are.

There's a lesson here - don't piss off people much more powerful than you. Assume you can't scry buff teleport, instead you spy on the party through mundane means, send your demons to fly on over under their own power and attack in the midde of the night. Same deal.

The problem is not with the tactic, the problem is with the enemies. They have to be of equal power to the PCs, otherwise one will just slaughter the other one way or another. If you want the PCs to go up against a hugely powerful organization, make sure they know what they're up against and that they know they need to keep their heads down.

-The Souljourner

 

[Dissenter]

This started to become common practice in the campaign i was in, whenever the PC's would get frustrated with an enemy, they would scry on him, buff up quickly, scry one more time to amke sure he hadn't moved and teleport in to gack him. I started to have second thoughts after the second or third time. Number one, this is one of the most dishonorable ways to beat someone. Its worse then having someone tie all of their limbs up, and gag them. Its on par with assassinating someone. I don't think it should be disallowed in game terms, but there are things you can do to combat it.

1.) Make it highly illegal. It is murder, plain and simple. No self defense case here.

2.) Start to give the PC's a bad rep when they do it. Have town people run away from them, have children scream in terror whenever they are seen. It will probably make some of them rethink their actions.

3.) Start to do it to the PC's, but instead of the bad guys being the ones doing it, have teams of lawful characters empowered by the ruling authority to take out these terrors to society ( the pcs ). See how the PC's feel when they have to kill the good guys because of their evil acts.

4.) Start shifting the PC's alignment to chaotic.

None of these really work if you are playing an evil campaign as most of them rely on guilt, and a sense of morality. It will certainly work if you have a paladin, or lawful good cleric in the group. ( If they participate, take away all of their powers immediately ). There is no excuse for assassination in the eyes of their god.

 

[Skaros]

Well, anyone who reaches the level of power where friends and enemies tend to have ready access to teleport, is heroic in ability, and should pretty well expect ambushes of this sort.

From reading Piratecat's story hour, as well as Wulf's story hour, you can see a lot of scry-teleport combos being used.....doesn't seem to harm the stories created by DM and Player to me....

JERandall, why do you feel that scry-teleport thwarts location based encounters.

If by that statement you mean it thwarts the sort of encounters that one tends to stumble into by having to walk/ride across the country-side to get from place to place....well, good!

More time for politics, intrigue, and, well, roleplaying Less time wandering through the countryside hitting random encounters.

Whatcha think?

-Skaros

 

[The Souljourner]

Hate to post twice in a row, but I had to respond to Axeboy's post. I think you have a really good and very interesting point. Magic on this sort of level is incredibly powerful. Something is keeping these guys in check. Or maybe not - maybe mages get killed all the time exactly because of these tactics. In which case there's probably only a few high level mages who keep an eye out for up-and-comers and take them out before they come into their own. Which could give a lot of plot hooks all on its own.

That kind of thinking almost makes me want to start my own campaign just to explore the possibilities. You've really gotten the wheels turning, Axeboy. Thanks.

-The Souljourner

 

[Christian]

I find myself agreeing with nharwell. What in the spell descriptions is making people think that one can Teleport to 'wherever the subject of my Scry spell is'? And if being able to see the person whose vicinity you want to travel to is sufficient, why would you even need to use Scry? "I want to teleport to a spot directly in front of Bonan the Barbarian." There you go!

The Scry spell doesn't say anything about being able to see the details of the area the subject is in ...

 

[officeronin]

It's a huge problem

It was so bad, that the PCs all faked their death, and now operate in secret.

Of course, the PCs use it constantly -- any dragon we've ever heard of (thank you Loremaster "Lore" ability) is meat. Loremaster does the scry, Cleric ready actions Harm (after the teleport), Fighter ready actions his bow and brilliant energy arrow (after the Harm -- both bow and arrow have been greater magic weaponed), and the Loremaster teleports. The dragon never gets an action.

Very grim.

OfficeRonin

My pens, black and red
Create and correct error
Ying and yang of life

 

[coyote6]

The question is, what's the difference between teleport and just plain walking up to them and slaughtering them?

Surprise. Complete and utter surprise. Walking up to someone in a fortress is a lot more complicated than appearing in their bedroom in the dead of night.

. If the Brotherhood is so powerful that they can summon up demons that can instantly slaughter the party, then the party should do everything it can to keep them from knowing who they are.

Knowing who you're after is largely irrelevant. Scrying is easy, under the core rules. The DC to scry someone of whom you have no knowledge is 20 -- though you do have to have some sort of connection to the target. However, the lowest type of connection gives a +5 bonus to the Scry check, effectively bringing the DC down to 15. And the DC for casting with only secondhand knowledge (the kind of thing you might get by, say, casting speak with dead on an ex-minion and asking about what killed him) is also a paltry 15.

By the time you can scry, you're at least 7th level; a Scry bonus of +5 is disgustingly easy to get by then (it's at most 3 ranks for a wizard, which is at worst 1/11th their skill points -- not a huge sacrifice), allowing a wizard to simply take 10 and automatically succeed at anything but extraplanar scrying.

(Fear the divine oracle, whose minimum Scry bonus is +12, assuming a non-negative Int modifier.)

Again, my problem is with the implications. I don't like the kind of setting suggested by allowing the combination to be as easy and effective as it is.