D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[Xeviat]

Kits the main one was weapon specialization and good saves. +1 to hit, +2 damage an extra atack ever second rounbd (starting from level 1) and by level 20 they had the equivalent of +15 to +18 on all saves (vs DC 20).

Weapon Specialization and Good Saves might be the thing I'd glom onto then. Extra crit range is fun, but it's random by it's nature and it stacks with other abilities in such was as to make those into optimal choices (and an optimal choice on a suboptimal choice kind of becomes the only choice to those informed, or at least the only strong choice). Bonus to hit could become problematic in 5E's flatter math, but 1 or 2 points across the levels might not be bad.

Giving Champions a saving throw bonus would be very interesting. It wouldn't compare with anything the Battle Master has, and could make them stand out.

 

[Flamestrike]

A simple buff to the champion fighter is to use the gritty rest variant.

The battle master has to wait until he gets eight hours of sleep to get those dice back, meanwhile the champion is going all day long.

Another recommended buff is to allow Champion fighters to use remarkable athlete to grant half proficiency to strength, dexterity and constitution skills (full stop). It basically grants them half expertise on skills that they do have.

I also give them half proficiency to non-proficient saves at 18th level (as part of the survivor feature). Mechanically this plays nice with indomitable. From a gameplay perspective it is a fixed bonus that goes with the champion play style. From a fluff perspective it harkens back to advanced dungeons and dragons where fighters had the best saving throws.

 

[Flamestrike]

Weapon Specialization and Good Saves might be the thing I'd glom onto then. Extra crit range is fun, but it's random by it's nature and it stacks with other abilities in such was as to make those into optimal choices (and an optimal choice on a suboptimal choice kind of becomes the only choice to those informed, or at least the only strong choice). Bonus to hit could become problematic in 5E's flatter math, but 1 or 2 points across the levels might not be bad.

Giving Champions a saving throw bonus would be very interesting. It wouldn't compare with anything the Battle Master has, and could make them stand out.

I use a homebrew feat in my own game called weapon specialisation. Prerequisite is fighter level 6.

It grants +1 to hit and + 2 to damage. On a critical hit it forces a Con saving throw (DC 8 + Strength or Dexterity + proficiency) or the creature struck is staggered (disadvantage to all attack rolls and cannot take reactions) until the start of your next turn. You can retrain the weapon to a different one by using downtime.

The saving throw debuff on a critical hits plays nice with the champions improved critical hit range.

 

[Blue]

I have a problem with the basic premise. The battlemaster is considered overpowered, especially at the lower levels. Using it for a comparison point will lead to an unbalanced subclass.

 

[Sacrosanct]

At at level 3, it is weaker than the BM by every conceivable metric. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise (it's nifty to see the Champion's synergy with half-orc and great weapon master, but I'd like to see other options be good). Heck, my whole comparison was giving the Champion the best assumptions possible; a sword and board Champion would be a lot worse off.

I wanted to address this specifically, because it's a common response. I'm not arguing that the BM is stronger mechanically or not. But that's not the point. Believe it or not, many, many gamers don't care if one class is balanced exactly with another. Well, maybe not unless it's so imbalanced that the game is unplayable, but that's not remotely the case in D&D. A lot of people want a basic fighter ala old school, and don't care if its DPR is .5 different from the BM.

I'm sorry if you feel my response is hyperbolic, but if you put yourself into the shoes of those people, you'd certainly see how they would feel like if WotC started making changes like that they would feel left out. Just look at the responses by yourself and others in the past re: how WotC's design philosophy (of catering to grognards) has "left out" the warlord and other 4eisms.

And if I'm brutally honest, it's irrelevant if no one in your group has played the champion for whatever reason. Not all classes are meant to be played by all groups. That's why we have plenty of options. As a designer myself, I fully understand how some people have no interest in playing class A, while others really want class A. So Class A is included. And really, that's the core issue at the root of so many discussions like this: people feel like everything in the book needs to align with their wants or it's broken. Once people accept that certain parts of the game may appeal to other playstyles than their own, and stick with the parts they do like, the better off we'd all be.

 

[Xeviat]

I have a problem with the basic premise. The battlemaster is considered overpowered, especially at the lower levels. Using it for a comparison point will lead to an unbalanced subclass.

This is an argument I've made in the past. To me, it only looks really problematic at 3rd and 4th, but I haven't gotten to see it in play (the only fighter has been an EK).


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[guachi]

The problems I have have been covered by others:

Remarkable Athlete has bonuses that are neutered if you already have proficiency in that skill. Other classes/subclasses/UA subclasses that grant skills don't have this problem. An additional 1/2 proficency on top of regular proficiency seems warranted (though I doubt I'd let the total proficiency bonus be more than 2x so no Expertise + 1/2 proficiency)

Second, the expanded crit range is far too random to be consistently useful. Yes, there are players who get really excited when they roll a 20 even if the damage isn't meaningful. I'd be tempted to expand the crit range to 18-20 at level 3. Though its synergy with GWM is so high I'm not certain how this would work in practice.

Both changes are simple enough they don't add any extra complexity to the fighter, they just make what he already does better.

 

[Jester David]

Buffing the champion is tricky as it needs to have a small hand size. It is the class for people who want simple, with no built-in options. People who just want to play and roll the dice and don't get off on multiple choices each combat rounds. The bonuses do need to be static.

Reliability or bonuses with existing fighter powers might be cool.
Maybe instead of 1d10 for second wind it's 2d6. Or if the fighter uses Action Surge and misses with every attack, the ability is not expended.

 

[bid]

The battle master has to wait until he gets eight hours of sleep to get those dice back, meanwhile the champion is going all day long.

While I don't disagree with that at high levels, there are 2 caveats:
- A single riposte does ~15 damage on hit while a crit roll of 19 adds ~7; you need at least 20 attack rolls per SD (even dropping hit rate to 50%).
- You will run out of health within ~40 rounds of combat, and ~20 rounds the following weeks (very conservative, getting hit 8 times for 5 damage each doesn't take that long).


There needs a way to negate part of the riposte damage, an extra action surge can roughly cancel 2 SD and opens up more "athletic" uses.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I don't know. Personally, my issue with the expanded crit range is that it is a passive ability. It has potential and can be effective, sure. But what D&D is all about is fun. And fun abilities tend to be ones in which the player has agency to activate them.

Oh, I failed that save? Well, let me pull out indomitable. Oh, you avoided all four of my attacks? Let's see how well you can keep that up with 4 more as I action surge yo butt.

This I believe is the key difference between the Champion, and the Battlemaster/Eldritch Knight. They provide additional options, and in my experience, options are fun for players. Even Remarkable Athlete is a passive increase rather than creating opportunities for more options.

In that sense, an extra Action Surge at level 7 is an interesting idea proposed earlier in the thread. So is allowing Remarkable Athlete to stack with proficiency. In my games I give the Champion an additional +2 to damage on all attacks each time they get a higher crit range, so that their benefits are more tangible and felt in every combat (because even with an increased crit range, it is theoretically possible to never actually crit. I'd rather my players not have to rely on the whims of the dice gods to feel like their player's powers are contributing).