D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[SmokeyCriminal]

With the idea of keeping things simple, keeping the Champion player engaged between his turns, and incentivizing melee, and making the Champion the obvious DPS sub-class. Why not give him Retaliation at 3rd lvl.

It feels like it would be cool to have a sword and board Champion with protection. Eagerly waiting for someone to hit him or his friends so he can attack them back. Having a consistent but straight forward use of BA and Reaction would feel really fun. To feel like you're relevant throughout the whole fight and not just during your turn, and to feel like 'coming to the rescue' of your allies. Which should be extra important to the Champion because he basically just does one thing, so he should do it on his turn, and their turn, and your turn, and every ones turn. Or at least give the impression that he is. That feels epic and like a Champion and like more fun.

I'd love to see what the math would look like tho. I'd be ok if he blows past the BM because Champion is sorta a one trick pony and he should be the obvious best at it.

I also want him to be more competitive with the BM in terms of dipping and that's why i suggest 3rd lvl for Retaliation. But if its too overpowered then what about 5th lvl? Seeing Extra Attack AND Retaliation makes the choice between BM and Champion a lot more difficult. Which is what we want, right?

 

[Horwath]

Maybe add on 3rd level: You gain +1 HP for every level of fighter you have.

 

[Gradine]

There rarely has been anything remotely like that, before, and 5e does seem intent of filling in the classic stuff, first.

To be fair, the original Warlock (3.5) was pretty simple; Eldritch Blast was a class feature that did more damage per class level, and Invocations were basically a handful of simple add-ons, many of which were modifications to the Eldritch Blast.

 

[Corwin]

Maybe add on 3rd level: You gain +1 HP for every level of fighter you have.

If you are looking for that kind of bump, why not just change champion HD to d12s?

 

[Tony Vargas]

To be fair, the original Warlock (3.5) was pretty simple; Eldritch Blast was a class feature that did more damage per class level, and Invocations were basically a handful of simple add-ons, many of which were modifications to the Eldritch Blast.

Sure - not as simple as a 1e fighter or 2e fighter or 3e barbarian or Essentials Slayer or 5e Champion, but simple compared to other casters - but sure.

To make it that little bit harder to actually build off that, though, like the Elemental Sorcerer, the 3.5 Warlock parent-class has already been established in 5e as a comparatively complicated caster (arguably full caster). And, we still don't have any precedent for a sub-class removing/simplifying parent-class abilities.

 

[OB1]

I don't think there is an issue with the Champion as is, but if you want to give her a bump while sticking with the theme of always on abilities and keeping complexity to a minimum, I'd say giving either another Fighting Style, half proficiency bonus to all saves or an additional ASI at 3rd level would be effective.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

With the idea of keeping things simple, keeping the Champion player engaged between his turns, and incentivizing melee, and making the Champion the obvious DPS sub-class. Why not give him Retaliation at 3rd lvl.

It feels like it would be cool to have a sword and board Champion with protection. Eagerly waiting for someone to hit him or his friends so he can attack them back. Having a consistent but straight forward use of BA and Reaction would feel really fun. To feel like you're relevant throughout the whole fight and not just during your turn, and to feel like 'coming to the rescue' of your allies. Which should be extra important to the Champion because he basically just does one thing, so he should do it on his turn, and their turn, and your turn, and every ones turn. Or at least give the impression that he is. That feels epic and like a Champion and like more fun.

I'd love to see what the math would look like tho. I'd be ok if he blows past the BM because Champion is sorta a one trick pony and he should be the obvious best at it.

I also want him to be more competitive with the BM in terms of dipping and that's why i suggest 3rd lvl for Retaliation. But if its too overpowered then what about 5th lvl? Seeing Extra Attack AND Retaliation makes the choice between BM and Champion a lot more difficult. Which is what we want, right?

Well, I believe the Knight archetype has become the king of fighters when it comes to using their reaction. To reduce overlap between archetypes and not stepping on the toes of others, I don't think reactions are the way to go. However, I like the idea of doing something with the bonus actions. Perhaps allowing the Champion to use Shove, Grapple, or Overrun (or alternatively, Dash) as bonus actions might create a more interesting Champion. It would be something similar to the Rogue's Cunning Action. Not game breaking, but gives the Champion a few more options.

And yes, I know the potential argument to this. It steps on the toes of various feats (such as Grappler and Shield Master). However, we have already seen precedent for UA archetypes replicating feats. Feats are meant to be an optional rule to begin with, and this presents a way for people to achieve an effect similar to the feats without actually requiring the feats.

Alternatively, there may be a way for a Champion to gain an Improved Fighting Style. This might be simply increasing the bonus from their current fighting style, or providing unique action/bonus action/reaction options based on their fighting style.

 

[Gradine]

I have a player in a campaign that wanted to play a ''simple'' fighter and was interested in the champion. As a big fan of the material of Cubicle 7, I pointed her toward the Weapon Master from their conversion of the One Ring to 5e, which works similarly to the champion, but give the player a choice of passive abilities like the warlock invocations and gain a specialisation in the fighting style she took at lvl 1 instead of gaining a second one.

I do like the idea of Improved Fighting Styles; and in fact when I designed a "Defender"-style Fighter Archetype I gave them an Improved Fighting Style (specifically Protection). Being able to pick from a wide range of Improved Fighting Styles (as a choice instead of adding additional styles) would go a long way towards giving Champion its own niche beyond crit ranges and broadening their versatility (presumably, depending on how such styles would be written).

 

[MiraMels]

You know, i think a big part of why Remarkable Athlete feels so...disappointing for most is that grappling and shoving uses *skill proficiencies*. If grappling and shoving was an unmodified ability check, like initiative, then that bonus would suddenly feel *incredible*.

(Plus, this would make Barbarians and Champions the best single-classed grapplers in the game, which, feels a lot better than Bards and Rogues being the best single-classed grapplers.)

 

[Gladius Legis]

Meh, honestly, I'd rather keep the Champion as it is. It's the simplest subclass and it's obvious who it's meant for (i.e. beginners and other players who don't want to manage resources or use tactics). It should have a lower ceiling than the Battle Master. The BM also has some untapped design space that can be filled in later (i.e. advanced multi-dice maneuvers), and I'd rather WOTC devote their energy to expanding on that.