D&D 5E Building a better Fighter

[Paul Smart]

OP here. Love all the great ideas.

 

[DaedalusX51]

I've taken another crack at the fighter. This time with ideas from this thread.

Things to note:

For every class that gains the extra attack feature, they also either gain a new level of spells or an additional feature. For some reason the fighter never gained an additional benefit as well.

I've based the Subclass design on theme like the other classes. If you like what I've made, I will make more.

Please let me know what you think.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJX-IRuOXW

 

[Quickleaf]

I've taken another crack at the fighter. This time with ideas from this thread.

Things to note:

For every class that gains the extra attack feature, they also either gain a new level of spells or an additional feature. For some reason the fighter never gained an additional benefit as well.

I've based the Subclass design on theme like the other classes. If you like what I've made, I will make more.

Please let me know what you think.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJX-IRuOXW

Really interesting design. What I like best about Combat Reflexes (more reactions for the fighter) is how you play off of that in your 3rd-level subclass features. That's good design.

However.

I've heard the designers say (and read in the DMG) that breaking the One Reaction/PC/round rule is likely overpowered. My hunch is that – speaking of a single-class fighter without some new feat/spell/magic item/design element that grants uses for Reaction – your design is just fine. However, introduce the possibility of multi-classing and other design elements and I'm not convinced that your Combat Reflexes would be balanced.

EDIT: As an aside, I think with all homebrew work (especially the stuff I'm seeing on Homebrewery), it's a great design ethic to include your notes/thought process as an addendum to your homebrew stuff. For example, maybe you've already done a lot of thinking and reading (or even playtesting) about Combat Reflexes that the reader would benefit from reading about.

 

[DaedalusX51]

Really interesting design. What I like best about Combat Reflexes (more reactions for the fighter) is how you play off of that in your 3rd-level subclass features. That's good design.

However.

I've heard the designers say (and read in the DMG) that breaking the One Reaction/PC/round rule is likely overpowered. My hunch is that – speaking of a single-class fighter without some new feat/spell/magic item/design element that grants uses for Reaction – your design is just fine. However, introduce the possibility of multi-classing and other design elements and I'm not convinced that your Combat Reflexes would be balanced.

EDIT: As an aside, I think with all homebrew work (especially the stuff I'm seeing on Homebrewery), it's a great design ethic to include your notes/thought process as an addendum to your homebrew stuff. For example, maybe you've already done a lot of thinking and reading (or even playtesting) about Combat Reflexes that the reader would benefit from reading about.

Thanks for the insight. I really appreciate your comments.

As for additional reactions being overpowered, I still have to spend time in game to see if that would actually be true. As far as I can tell almost all reactions can be avoided by the DM playing around the players abilities. This actually minimizes the strength of reactions since they are all triggered.

The only multiclass combination that I could see would be a fighter 5+/ rogue x. They would potentially be able to get sneak attack 3 or more times per round. However the DM could even play around that.

A Polearm Master would be able to fend off multiple creatures per round, but a DM could ready multiple advances/charges at the same time in order to avoid triggering more than one attack

I personally think that multiple reactions aren't overpowered, but they do increase complexity. I think that was the reason the designers decided to move away from that direction. It is the same reason they attempted to get rid of the minor action, which the bonus action is in everything but name.

However I think that there is precedent in D&D that fighters should be able to take multiple reactions (combat reflexs from 3e and 4e fighters) and I think that is a good feature to make fighters stand out.

Thanks again for the input. Maybe we should create some kind of Fighter Homebrew project so that all of us can work together on it?

While it seems we may disagree on the direction to take things I think it would help push the fighter design to new and interesting directions.

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[Krachek]

EK and BM are fine.
The champion is ok for a basic fighter. If it had been better than the two others, people would complain that the most competitive choice is brainless.

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for the insight. I really appreciate your comments.

As for additional reactions being overpowered, I still have to spend time in game to see if that would actually be true. As far as I can tell almost all reactions can be avoided by the DM playing around the players abilities. This actually minimizes the strength of reactions since they are all triggered.

The only multiclass combination that I could see would be a fighter 5+/ rogue x. They would potentially be able to get sneak attack 3 or more times per round. However the DM could even play around that.

A Polearm Master would be able to fend off multiple creatures per round, but a DM could ready multiple advances/charges at the same time in order to avoid triggering more than one attack

I personally think that multiple reactions aren't overpowered, but they do increase complexity. I think that was the reason the designers decided to move away from that direction. It is the same reason they attempted to get rid of the minor action, which the bonus action is in everything but name.

However I think that there is precedent in D&D that fighters should be able to take multiple reactions (combat reflexs from 3e and 4e fighters) and I think that is a good feature to make fighters stand out.

Yeah, the area you'll need to examine closely / playtest is multi-classing...the designers of 5e were very careful about what they included in the game...and they spent hours going over a 100,000+ player playtest. It doesn't mean that what you're proposing isn't necessarily possibly, but it does put a big burden of proof on the shoulders of anyone implementing such a "Multiple Reaction" class feature. One example that comes to mind: Barbarian (Berserker) 14 / Your Fighter 5. How does Retaliation (if you get melee attacked, you can counterattack as a reaction) work with Combat Reflexes?

If you want to delve further along that route, I recommend checking out my Warrior homebrew, specifically under Warrior's Gift expanding the spoiler Maths Comparing Warrior's Gift Options – for the specific reason of my in-depth analysis of Action Surge and how you can break it down to get something close to your Combat Reflexes idea, without wholesale giving the fighter more reactions.

Thanks again for the input. Maybe we should create some kind of Fighter Homebrew project so that all of us can work together on it?

While it seems we may disagree on the direction to take things I think it would help push the fighter design to new and interesting directions.

Several of us have taken stabs at it, feel free to start something up. I'd be happy to chime in.

However, fair warning: I think what you'll find is that "design-by-committee" is really challenging, since people generally turn to homebrewing to get something that works at their table, not to playtest what works at someone else's table.

 

[DaedalusX51]

Yeah, the area you'll need to examine closely / playtest is multi-classing...the designers of 5e were very careful about what they included in the game...and they spent hours going over a 100,000+ player playtest. It doesn't mean that what you're proposing isn't necessarily possibly, but it does put a big burden of proof on the shoulders of anyone implementing such a "Multiple Reaction" class feature. One example that comes to mind: Barbarian (Berserker) 14 / Your Fighter 5. How does Retaliation (if you get melee attacked, you can counterattack as a reaction) work with Combat Reflexes?

If you want to delve further along that route, I recommend checking out my Warrior homebrew, specifically under Warrior's Gift expanding the spoiler Maths Comparing Warrior's Gift Options – for the specific reason of my in-depth analysis of Action Surge and how you can break it down to get something close to your Combat Reflexes idea, without wholesale giving the fighter more reactions.

Thanks for the comments and pointing out things I may have overlooked.

Combat Reflexes already states that you can only take one reaction per turn so I don't think the Barbarian gaining the ability to retaliate against an additional opponent when ganged up on in melee would be too big of a benefit. Especially considering that they are giving up Primal Champion, Unlimited Rages, Indomitable Might, and an Ability Score Increase to gain it.

Multi-classing is actually the reason I decided to place it at 5th level. Originally I had it at 2nd level replacing Action Surge because I saw how it compared in the math for your Fighter homebrew. (great job btw. I've already commented on it in the past) However in doing my own math I've found that the Fighter loses out in sustained damage over the course of the 6-8 encounter adventuring day compared to the Paladin. In addition, I've removed the most of the damage gained from the fighter subclasses except for their 15 level feature which allows them to modify their 3rd level feature with an additional attack (I actually borrowed this idea from the berserker's retaliate feature).

Anyhow, it's late here so i'll be heading off, but if you are interested in the damage per day calculations I've worked on for the Fighter vs Paladin I can share it with you later.

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for the comments and pointing out things I may have overlooked.

Combat Reflexes already states that you can only take one reaction per turn so I don't think the Barbarian gaining the ability to retaliate against an additional opponent when ganged up on in melee would be too big of a benefit. Especially considering that they are giving up Primal Champion, Unlimited Rages, Indomitable Might, and an Ability Score Increase to gain it.

Sounds like you're either confusing turns with rounds OR you're using a house rule regarding a group of monsters acting on the same turn.

RAW, each creature gets a turn. Even if 10 hobgoblins are clustered on the same initiative count, when hobgoblin A acts it takes its turn, and when hobgoblin B acts it takes its turn, and so on until the end of the combat round.

What Combat Reflexes + Berserker's Retaliation does is allow for a scenario where, for example...

Hobgoblin A damages PC with a melee weapon on its turn. PC reacts via Berserker's Retaliation, kills/wounds Hobgoblin A.

Hobgoblin B damages PC with a melee weapon on its turn. PC reacts via Berserker's Retaliation, and uses 2nd reaction thanks to Combat Reflexes, kills/wounds Hobgoblin B.

What you have here is a clear power-up over other characters that are possible in the PHB. This is objectively better than a Battle Master using Counterattack.

If you're operating from the premise that the PHB Fighter is "weaker" than other classes, then this may be seen as a feature to you. Similarly, if you want to encourage multi-classing into fighter, this may be seen as a feature to you. However, if the objective of your design is to make the fighter more interesting without a significant power boost, then this is something to be aware of.

Another example would be being able to use shield (via Magic Initiate feat or levels in a spellcasting class) and to make an opportunity attack in the same combat round.

 

[Valetudo]

You want a better fighter? Go play 4th edition. Thats the only edition that has a better version.

 

[cheeseguy]

Hi everyone.

Lets talk Fighters. What works about them? What would you change and why? How can they be improved?

I would love to hear everyones thoughts.

Well I mean I'm doing pretty good with a fighter I got. Though I usually go with strength as my main to.

Ability score I usually switch for feats, and atop of that if you go the Eldritch Knight martial archtype for 5e, literally can change a campaign.

Most of it is how you play with them. But yeah I can't really say anything for improvement.



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