Building a good wizard?

Victim

First Post
How do casters deal with grapple in Pathfinder?

I had planned on using D-Door to escape grapples, as in 3.5. However, the massive increase in the concentration check to cast when grappled seems to make that a poor option - a CMB on ~14ish monsters that might try to grapple generally seems to be in the mid twenties, so the DC to cast D-Door approaches 40. While not impossible, it does seem like a rather high chance of doing absolutely nothing.

Freedom of Movement is still good, and I guess a Cape of the Mountebank could be used (combo'd with Resistance) as well. But are there any other Pathfinder options?

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Acrobatics didn't seem very useful at high levels without magic items set to boost it. CMD for monsters seems like it goes up faster than 1 point per level in Acrobatics+some middling dex increases.
 

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StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
IME and from my comparisons of the numbers...

- You basically got it. I'm in a level 14 game right now, the DCs from anything that actually tries to grapple you are mathematically impossible for any of the casters to make. Use items. A wand of D Door also works, ironically, just not the actual spell. Carry one in your hand paranod at all times if you need to. Or get a teleporting item or friend to Freedom of Movement you. I don't think there really are any other options. If you can use 3E material, anklets of translocation are basically an essential item. Best option of all is to ask your DM to houserule the grapple concentration DC.

- Tumbling in PF is a suicide pact. On characters with Acrobatics, I use it for the jumping and balancing, I only tumble as an emergency last ditch kind of deal. As you saw, the DCs are again unreasonably high, and it's just not worth moving around a little to eat an attack for it, generally. I find myself using tactics like getting the foe flatfooted or readying to 5 ft step up and attack to get within the reach of things with longer reach than me when I melee. It's about all you can do, IMO.
Again, a good DM will see how dumb this all is and use the 3E tumble DCs.
 

hippononymous

First Post
You may want to look into taking the feat or rod for Elemental Spell. If you plan to be an evoker full-time, I highly recommend having handy the option to change the elemental damage of a spell. From my experience as both a DM and player, if a particular player is consistently dealing fire damage a la fireball and scorching ray, a lot of fire resistant/immune monsters are going to start cropping up.

Better yet, to keep from annoying your DM with too many fireballs, I would practice back up strategies, like being an enchanter. I know it's weird but a DM can tell when one player is outshining the others and will often take that into account when mapping out what monsters the players will fight.
 

Systole

First Post
I strongly STRONGLY STRONGLY recommend the teleportation specialist (conjuration sub-school). The ability to take a 5ft+ dimension door as a swift action with no AoO has saved my bacon on two separate occasions now -- and my wizard is 3rd level.

I'm also taking a straight up controller wizard, and I'm amazed at how much fun it is. Enemy archers on the roof? Obscuring Mist on the party. Evil halflings stealing a wagon shipment of mead? Color Spray the horses. Friendly neighborhood barbarian is about to be swallowed whole by a giant snapping turtle? Grease him. It's my goal to go through life without memorizing a single direct damage spell.


Current spell list
Cantrips
Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Resistance
First level spells
Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Grease*, Obscuring Mist*
Second level spells
Glitterdust*, Invisibility, Web*
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Systole, I find the Pyrotechnics spell great fun. If you have an archer in the party and the DM lets you use flaming arrows, readying an action to cast Pyro on the arrow as it nears the enemiesi s great fun, too. It's like shooting fireworks and rockets at the enemy!

(Which historically the Chinese and others actually DID do, so it's not even unrealistic)
 

Systole

First Post
[MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION] Pyrotechnics is on my list of spells to get, along with Hideous Laughter and Rope Trick. However, the party is currently racing against time to figure out where the Thieves' Guild is making their next shipment and stop them, and I barely had the downtime to get one extra scroll and scribe it in my spellbook. Since we know they're in the sewers, I figured Web was top priority.
 

The teleportation sub-school is super awesome. However, a cape of the Mountebank will work nicely once you can afford it (what else were you using your cape slot for anyways?) These give a nice grapple resist option. If you have neither, a Wizard's best defense is positioning. If you position yourself defensively and control the battlefield, you can make yourself safe from grapple by ensuring no opponent ever gets the option.

Another way to defend yourself is to ensure you get a familiar (improved) and grab something with hands (I like mephits). They can use caltrops, marbles, or even a wand of grease (if you max out your UMD) to keep some rough terrain between you and the potential threat without slowing down your casting.

That said, got to love the divination specialty. Divination spells are largely redundant, but a divination specialist always acts in the surprise round and gets an ever-building initiative bonus, which is huge.

Low point builds favor Wizards. Dex and Con get roughly equal treatment - 14 will do (after racial modifiers), and stack your Int as high as possible.

Cha, Wis and Str are all possible dump stats (you can dump all 3 if you like). Wisdom hurts your Will save, but that's not insurmountable.

Don't get too hung up on the direct damage spells, they tend to dish out less damage then expected after saving throws, evasion, elemental resistances and spell resistance are taken into account.

Wizards excel more than any other class however at controlling the battlefield. They are also very strong at buffing allies and debuffing enemies.

Work the numbers and you'll see that in most situations, you'll end up providing more damage to the enemy with a Haste spell then a Fireball. Wizards excel at team-playing, their spells are geared to that role. Wizards don't win the battle, they set up their allies to win.
 
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Victim

First Post
However, a cape of the Mountebank will work nicely once you can afford it (what else were you using your cape slot for anyways?)

Your Cloak of Resistance +X!

Work the numbers and you'll see that in most situations, you'll end up providing more damage to the enemy with a Haste spell then a Fireball.

Well, not that I don't value something like Haste, but the total damage dealt by the spell isn't the only consideration. Just like with money, I think we can also say that there's a "Time Value of Damage." Something like Haste that pays off over several rounds has to do more damage total to be equivalent to a spell that deals its damage immediately.
 

Your Cloak of Resistance +X!

My mistake, I thought the cape fit the robe slot. Have to get a robe of the mountebank I guess



Well, not that I don't value something like Haste, but the total damage dealt by the spell isn't the only consideration. Just like with money, I think we can also say that there's a "Time Value of Damage." Something like Haste that pays off over several rounds has to do more damage total to be equivalent to a spell that deals its damage immediately.

Agreed, though I would point out that Haste does ALOT more damage in most circumstances, and often doing less damage now, rather than more in the long run, gets overrated. The wounded guy hits just as hard as before he was wounded, and fireball isn't dropping any level appropriate enemies.

Against a single enemy or even 2 enemies it's not even close - Haste will out damage Fireball in the round you cast it with most party makeups. All those other rounds of bonuses are just that, a bonus.

With more opponents it gets closer (on round 1), but still, in the long run Haste is out damaging Fireball several times over.

Here are the numbers broken down:

Fireball: Let's say you are level 6, when you cast fireball, it will do 6d6 damage. That is (6x3.5) points of damage on average, or 21 per opponent hit.

Slow down though. You aren't going to average that much. Your opponent gets a saving throw for 1/2 damage. If we say 50/50 chance to save, then the average damage drops to about 15.75 points per opponent hit. Consider what a 6th level Fighter does for damage, or a flanking rogue, or a Paladin, or a Wildshaped Druid. The damage isn't terrible, but far from impressive.

It gets worse though. We talked about saving throws, but what about evasion? Most opponents don't have it, but those that do often mix it with a good Ref save (Monks and Rogues, or Rangers at higher levels for example). Let's just say, don't throw fireballs at suspected Rogues. Unfortunately, often enemy NPC's are a mix of classes, and chances are good that one has evasion.

That said, evasion is extremely rare when compared to fire resistance, which competes with cold resistance for the most common elemental resistance in the game. A mere 5 points reduces your average damage to 10.75 per opponent. 10 points and you are begging for scraps.

Then there is Spell resistance. This is very rare at lower levels, but continually becomes more common as your enemies CR increases.

Haste: Every one of your allies gets an extra attack when full attacking for 6 rounds (using our example of a 6th level caster).

Obviously it's hard to say how much extra damage that will be. Not all your allies may be full attacking this round, or next. Also, the average inflicted damage by your allies will vary greatly depending on your party.

Think though of your most recent party at 6th level. Thinking of mine, I know there was a Falchion wielding Paladin who was averaging over 20 points of damage per hit at that point (more when he was smiting). A Haste on him alone would provide 20 points of quick damage.

More than that though, his first 2 attacks in the round improved chances to hit by 1/20th. That means his normal attacks would be doing more damage on average too.

Of course I'm forgetting his Warhorse, which also would get an extra attack and have its regular attacks improved.

I would expect at least a 25 point of damage boost per round from that character alone.

Of course you are hasting more than one guy (unless you are a party of 2), so that's extra damage for every ally affected

SR doesn't matter, elemental resistance doesn't matter, no saving throw, no evasion, mixing enemies and allies doesn't ruin your shot.

Also you can apply that extra damage tactically (gang up on opponents), as spreading out damage equally is usually bad tactics.


Fireball is OK for large groups of fodder, but against primary enemies, you can usually do much better. Haste isn't my favorite 3rd level spell (I tend to favor battlefield controls), but as a damage dealer, it will usually outshine a fireball.
 

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