Building a practical unarmed monk

[nightwyrm]

They work for weapon powers, they do not for implement powers. Monk powers are implement powers.

Well, it seems kinda silly for monks to have a monk-only feat (Unarmed Mastery) that they really can't use. Do monks have options for expanding their crits except for jagged weapons?

 

[Smurtis]

I made a mock monk on the CB and noticed very quickly that all their attacks are implement only, with mostly touch attacks. The monks get a natural unarmed strike bonus as they level up. This does not seem to stack with weapons you equip, simply because the attacks are implement attacks, and dont use weapons.... basically, this means that all attacks are unarmed and the weapons are basically there for show or fluff...

Unfortuneatly, there is no essentials unarmed expertise out yet, which would put monks behind the curve unless they use a weapon implement... The Ki implements, therefore, wouldnt be as effective as using a staff, as an example. With a staff as your implement, you can apply staff expertise and gain many more bonuses then just having a ki implement.

There are options for superior ki implements though... something you should look up if you want to go purely unarmed. Over all though, i found the monk i made at level 12, to be far behind the curve of other lvl 12 characters when it comes to hitting... even their damage isnt that great for a striker.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, it seems kinda silly for monks to have a monk-only feat (Unarmed Mastery) that they really can't use. Do monks have options for expanding their crits except for jagged weapons?

Thing is, it IS useful for monks who multiclass, which is pretty much the whole point behind the Unarmed Combatant class feature and things that key off of it. Seeing as monks are a melee-based class, if they want synergy with any other class, they need some way to translate their unarmed monk-ness to other classes.

Also, OAs.

 

[Lo-Kag]

I made a mock monk on the CB and noticed very quickly that all their attacks are implement only, with mostly touch attacks. The monks get a natural unarmed strike bonus as they level up. This does not seem to stack with weapons you equip, simply because the attacks are implement attacks, and dont use weapons.... basically, this means that all attacks are unarmed and the weapons are basically there for show or fluff...

Unfortuneatly, there is no essentials unarmed expertise out yet, which would put monks behind the curve unless they use a weapon implement... The Ki implements, therefore, wouldnt be as effective as using a staff, as an example. With a staff as your implement, you can apply staff expertise and gain many more bonuses then just having a ki implement.

There are options for superior ki implements though... something you should look up if you want to go purely unarmed. Over all though, i found the monk i made at level 12, to be far behind the curve of other lvl 12 characters when it comes to hitting... even their damage isnt that great for a striker.

Is there anyway to boost their attack bonus? Implement attacks don't include a weapon proficiency bonus anyway so I can't even find a reason to play a monk anymore. A class doesn't seem worth it to me if it can't hit anything.

 

[Smurtis]

Is there anyway to boost their attack bonus? Implement attacks don't include a weapon proficiency bonus anyway so I can't even find a reason to play a monk anymore. A class doesn't seem worth it to me if it can't hit anything.

At level 12 it could look like this:

+6 (22 dex)
+6 (lvl 12)
+3 (implement)
+1 Unarmed expertise

There is a pre-essentials unarmed exptertise to get +1 and another +1 at 15th, 25th... not up to par with essentials, but it does give you a +16 to hit over all... now, remember, you are never targetting AC, so it's just about right to hit vs the other defenses... and, if you house rule unarmed expertise to atleast match essentials, then you're looking at +17 to hit

Also, if you're interested, at level 12 the monk unarmed strike bonus is at +3... this goes towards your BAs... so a MBA (if you take the feat to use your dex for BAs instead of strength) would be:

+6 (22 dex)
+6 (lvl 12)
+3 (implement)
+1 Unarmed expertise (+2 house rule)
+3 Monk unarmed strike bonus

totalling +19 (+20 house rule) vs AC, which is pretty good... so, a charging monk make up would be hot as hell lol... you can add on charge feat bonuses and make him even stronger lol

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Is there anyway to boost their attack bonus? Implement attacks don't include a weapon proficiency bonus anyway so I can't even find a reason to play a monk anymore. A class doesn't seem worth it to me if it can't hit anything.

The monk class attacks are all implements, and so they're versus NADs. So you don't *need* a proficiency bonus to hit.

For basic attacks, you get the proficiency bonus from Unarmed Strike or your weapon.

Brad

 

[Incenjucar]

The monk class attacks are all implements, and so they're versus NADs. So you don't *need* a proficiency bonus to hit.

For basic attacks, you get the proficiency bonus from Unarmed Strike or your weapon.

Brad

Yep.

And if you're using a ki focus, the benefits will go to your unarmed strike attack. Monks have no problem hitting things, they just don't have a huge reason to use unarmed strike instead of a weapon.

 

[tobiasosir]

The monk class attacks are all implements, and so they're versus NADs. So you don't *need* a proficiency bonus to hit.
Brad

I'm building a Monk right now in prep for a new game starting up in a couple weeks, and am wondering about the to hit bonuses as well. I played a fighter in the just finished portion of our campaign, and had a +11 to hit at level 6--and I barely hit anything.

This is only my second character, and it would hit against ref and fort instead of AC, but I'm not sure how my bonuses stack up. I have two variants: one who uses an Urgrosh and has a +10 to hit with +10 damage; the other uses a ki cutting wheel +1 and unarmed strike (with a +2 ki focus) for a +10 to hit and +8 damage. Is this appropriate for the level? I'm leaning toward the unarmed/cutting wheel one, and could up the damage by switching a couple things going to a +9 to hit...

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm building a Monk right now in prep for a new game starting up in a couple weeks, and am wondering about the to hit bonuses as well. I played a fighter in the just finished portion of our campaign, and had a +11 to hit at level 6--and I barely hit anything.

+4 to hit, +1 from fighter bonus, +3 from level, +2 prof bonus... that's +10. +11 if you're using a blade... you're actually behind where you could be with that character: you should have at least a +1 weapon, hopefully +2 at that point.

However, +11 to hit... monsters at that level have average AC of 20, so while you're likely behind the curve, you're still hitting on 9 or better, for 12 outcomes out of 20, or 60% of the time, plus or minus 5% per level differential That's not 'rarely'. That's actually spot on.

This is only my second character, and it would hit against ref and fort instead of AC, but I'm not sure how my bonuses stack up. I have two variants: one who uses an Urgrosh and has a +10 to hit with +10 damage; the other uses a ki cutting wheel +1 and unarmed strike (with a +2 ki focus) for a +10 to hit and +8 damage. Is this appropriate for the level? I'm leaning toward the unarmed/cutting wheel one, and could up the damage by switching a couple things going to a +9 to hit...

Implement attacks are different tho. At level 6, you can expect +4 from attribute, +3 from level, +2 from your enchantment bonus. +9 is like above... spot on. If you're +10, you're a tiny bit ahead of the curve.

The trick here is to leverage which defense you target. Generally, you use the attack that will have the most success. This is something you have to get a feel for, but you use your reflex on slow tough things, and your fortitude on fast skinny things.

Monsters are designed so that while they generally have an AC which is spot-on where it should be (soldiers being the exception), their other defenses vary greatly. Some will be higher, and others will be lower to compensate. By hitting the lower defense, you'll essentially give yourself an effective bonus to attack of anywhere between +1 to +4! If you're starting ahead of the curve already (65% in your case), then you're on average, if you're using your attacks intellegently, going to be hitting 70-85% of the time once you've got it all sorted.

So... yeah. You're golden if you play smart.


As for sacrificing hit for damage... don't. The math on it is terribly complicated, but it's generally a bad idea and you end up doing less damage AND doing less cool stuff by lowering your hit.

 

[tobiasosir]

However, +11 to hit... monsters at that level have average AC of 20, so while you're likely behind the curve, you're still hitting on 9 or better, for 12 outcomes out of 20, or 60% of the time, plus or minus 5% per level differential That's not 'rarely'. That's actually spot on.

Must have been my rolls...your analysis is right, but I seemed to roll lower than a 9 more often than not. Maybe it's time for a new die

Implement attacks are different tho. At level 6, you can expect +4 from attribute, +3 from level, +2 from your enchantment bonus. +9 is like above... spot on. If you're +10, you're a tiny bit ahead of the curve.
... ... ...
So... yeah. You're golden if you play smart.

That's nice to hear. I'm really very new to D&D, and thought I was missing something...but after playing with the CB for a week, I can't seem to get above +10. If that's usual for this level, I'm fine.
Good advice on what to target, too...with the fighter, it was always AC, but now I've got two different defenses to think about. Never really thought about it before, so I'll have to start playing closer attention. Thanks!

As for sacrificing hit for damage... don't. The math on it is terribly complicated, but it's generally a bad idea and you end up doing less damage AND doing less cool stuff by lowering your hit.

That makes sense; I didn't think of it that way. Damage is great, especially for a striker, but if i don't hit I don't damage! Plus my FoB is going to be minimum 9 damage per round if I hit, so I'd better make sure I hit...the +10 plus combat advantage should take care of that I guess.
One of the big questions for me was if I should take Dwarven Weapon Training. I like the versatility of weapons it allows me and the +2 damage, but I could probably use the feat for something better like weapon extertise or something that helps with combat advantage.

But...

And if you're using a ki focus, the benefits will go to your unarmed strike attack. Monks have no problem hitting things, they just don't have a huge reason to use unarmed strike instead of a weapon.

Why is this? As a typical Monk power, it's irellevant because the damage is standard; as a MBA, I have a +13 to attack and +8 damage, and even with the Runepriest power I have (multiclassed) I deal 1D8 with the same bonuses. Without taking a feat for weapon proficiency, that's just as powerful as my other options. If I did take DWT, i could use some nice d12 weapons, but otherwise, Unarmed seems good to me...but again, I'm new at this, I may be missing something!