Building a practical unarmed monk

[DracoSuave]

With regarding weapons vs unarmed...

Monks also have feats that give them benefits when they use certain weapons as implements.

One example that comes to mind is the club. Monks can take that club, and take a feat that enhances their flurry of blows damage by two if they succeed in an attack with a club.

It doesn't matter if the attack is weapon or implement. It just matters if you're using a club. At heroic levels this is a small amount, but at higher tiers you can apply this extra damage against multiple foes at once. Then if you have Hammer Rhythm, you can also apply your Con bonus in damage whenever you miss a target with that club... again... not caring if it's weapon or implement.

Or, in the case of a staff, you can use a staff of ruin, and that will enhance your damage greatly.

The catch with using a weapon as your implement is that you cannot use a ki-focus while doing so. Ideally... you just take whatever accessory is coolest or has the abilities you want. That's probably the best way to go.

 

[Incenjucar]

Why is this? As a typical Monk power, it's irellevant because the damage is standard; as a MBA, I have a +13 to attack and +8 damage, and even with the Runepriest power I have (multiclassed) I deal 1D8 with the same bonuses. Without taking a feat for weapon proficiency, that's just as powerful as my other options. If I did take DWT, i could use some nice d12 weapons, but otherwise, Unarmed seems good to me...but again, I'm new at this, I may be missing something!

Unarmed Strike is perfectly fine, it just doesn't have real feat support or any properties to take advantage of except for Off-hand. A longsword, for example, has the same damage and to-hit, but is versatile and a heavy blade. There feats available to an unarmed/ki-focus* monk are an Epic "add ki focus bonus to grab, grab on OA", "ki focus bonus to bull rush, uber bullrush push", "target loses resists on crit with Unarmed Strike (NOT when using monk powers)", "19-20 crit range with Unarmed Strike (not powers), "target loses resists when you crit with Unarmed Strike (not powers)" and then the incredibly bad "do d10 damage instead of d10 (not powers)."

*Ki focus attacks are available to anyone using a ki focus, but that's usually going to be an unarmed monk so we'll just assume it as an advantage here.

Unarmed strike is okay if you simply absolutely cannot find room for a weapon proficiency for a superior weapon, but otherwise...

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem with superior weapon proficiency is, unless you're a hybrid or multiclass, there's very few weapon properties you actually care about.

You mention versatile, but you cannot use versatile on implement attacks. Same with brutal, high crit, or any of that other stuff. Versatile only has downside if you're small. There's no point even bothering from that point of view.

And unless you're Stone Fist, or have melee training, or have a leader based around granting free attacks, you're just not invested enough in MBAs to care what your weapon damage is.

The only advantage you can get from weapon traits is defensive. Other than that... you're pretty much relying on weapon-type feats (which don't care about superior weapons) and such. And very few of those are as good as the one monks get for clubs, as that gives you 2 extra damage on a hit that stacks with every other bit of damage you do.

 

[Incenjucar]

There are also some monk feats that make use of weapons, mostly to boost flurry of blows, but they're monk weapons. Overall there's just not much that monks gain when it comes to weapons of any sort.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah... I honestly think the only type of weapon worth going out of your way to get proficiency in as a monk is a defensive off-hand weapon... or Staff Fighting. Other than that... really? No point; it doesn't help your primary game plan of smash things in faces with implement attacks.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah... I honestly think the only type of weapon worth going out of your way to get proficiency in as a monk is a defensive off-hand weapon... or Staff Fighting. Other than that... really? No point; it doesn't help your primary game plan of smash things in faces with implement attacks.

Accurate dagger? I know it's technically a superior implement... I can't remember offhand, but can you combine Starblade Flurry with a parrying dagger?

 

[tobiasosir]

I'm playing with the cb now and I can't seem to get much better than I have done, a build using unarmed strike and a Ki cutting wheel +1 with a Ki Focus +2. This gives me +10 to hit and about 6 extra damage. The accurate dagger would put me up to +11 to hit at the cost of a feat if I get a +2 weapon. This looks like a good plan, though I'd have to choose between my second weapon being a Ki dagger (for the extra FoB damage) or a rhythm blade (which would put me at 22 AC).

Or, a two dagger monk with a Ki focus; Ki dagger for the FoB, rhythm blade cutting wheel for a 23 AC, and the Ki Focus gives me a +10 to hit on most powers. Best of all worlds...

Now as I understand it, a Ki Focus "overrides" the properties, enhancements, and proficiency of mundane weapons. But if I have a magic weapon, i use the proficiency of the Ki Focus, and the properties of the weapon, because it's being used as an implement, are still viable. That is, I can use a Ki Focused Ki Blade and still have access to the extra FoB damage. Is this right? Though writing it out like that makes it seem like I'm using enhancements from both, which seems unbalanced...

 

[tobiasosir]

With regarding weapons vs unarmed...

Monks also have feats that give them benefits when they use certain weapons as implements.

One example that comes to mind is the club. Monks can take that club, and take a feat that enhances their flurry of blows damage by two if they succeed in an attack with a club.

... ... ...

The catch with using a weapon as your implement is that you cannot use a ki-focus while doing so. Ideally... you just take whatever accessory is coolest or has the abilities you want. That's probably the best way to go.

Tried a Crashing Tempest style as well, which looks nice. With a rhythm dagger in my off hand, a club in my main hand, and a +2 Ki focus, I still have a +10 to hit. If i were to use a Ki club, would that damage stack with the style? This would put my FoB damage at 11 each time I hit, which is very nice...

I think I'm seeing the distinction now between weapon-as-implement and Ki Focuses; in the CB power cards, for example, there's a listing for a Ki Focused Club +2, then below that Ki Club. This means that if I'm using the Ki Focus, the properties of the club aren't in effect...but what about the bit in the rules compendium that says when using a magic item as an impliment, all the properties etc. are intact? Is it just that I'm effectively trying to use two impliments (Ki focus and a weapon) at the same time?

 

[Smurtis]

a Ki item is an implement on it's own, and does not stack with implement weapons. You gotta pick one or the other... so stacking is no good... the only reason why Ki implements exist is so monks can go unarmed and not miss out on implement enhancement bonuses.

If you decide to use weapons, then dont bother with Ki implements.

** EDIT **

Remember, a monk doesnt actually ever use a weapon for melee... it's an implement... it may as well be a wand for the purpose of function lol... your attacks are all either Melee 1 or touch... which has nothing to do with your weapon... a weapon for monks is like a wand (or dagger) for casters; they dont swing at their enemies, instead, they focus their powers through them.

 

[tobiasosir]

a Ki item is an implement on it's own, and does not stack with implement weapons. You gotta pick one or the other... so stacking is no good... the only reason why Ki implements exist is so monks can go unarmed and not miss out on implement enhancement bonuses.

If you decide to use weapons, then dont bother with Ki implements.

** EDIT **

Remember, a monk doesnt actually ever use a weapon for melee... it's an implement... it may as well be a wand for the purpose of function lol... your attacks are all either Melee 1 or touch... which has nothing to do with your weapon... a weapon for monks is like a wand (or dagger) for casters; they dont swing at their enemies, instead, they focus their powers through them.

Ha...that's what I thought. For the past week I've been playing around with different combinations, but they've all involved using both a Ki Focus and an Implement, stacked. I'll have to rethink this...

I have two main reasons to use weapons: I've multiclassed into Runepriest (because I've always wanted to play one) and need a decent attack for those powers. Though the unarmed strike when added to the Ki focus is a +13 th with 1d8 + 6 damage, nothing to sneeze at.
Secondly, so I can take advantage of weapon properties like defensive (to boost ac because I'll be in the thick of things) or the Ki weapon to boost my Fob.

It looks like my best option is using a Ki focus with an unarmed attack, and a Ki cutting wheel without the focus for the defensive bonus and FoB...or using an Urgrosh without a focus, which grants the defensive bonus, the same th, and 2 more damage.