Building a practical unarmed monk

[DracoSuave]

Tried a Crashing Tempest style as well, which looks nice. With a rhythm dagger in my off hand, a club in my main hand, and a +2 Ki focus, I still have a +10 to hit. If i were to use a Ki club, would that damage stack with the style? This would put my FoB damage at 11 each time I hit, which is very nice...

I think I'm seeing the distinction now between weapon-as-implement and Ki Focuses; in the CB power cards, for example, there's a listing for a Ki Focused Club +2, then below that Ki Club. This means that if I'm using the Ki Focus, the properties of the club aren't in effect...but what about the bit in the rules compendium that says when using a magic item as an impliment, all the properties etc. are intact? Is it just that I'm effectively trying to use two impliments (Ki focus and a weapon) at the same time?

I'll explain this in detail, going from the general rule down to the specific.

Regarding your implement powers and ki focuses:

Implement powers only allow you to use one implement with them.


....nothing changes this. So if you have a ki focus or a weapon, it's one or the other. You cannot use both at the same time, and you cannot use the ki focus through the weapon. Nothing allows you to do this.

Weapon powers require one weapon to be used with them, and use the weapon's properties.
--Magic weapons allow you to use their enhancement bonuses and properties and powers.
----Ki focuses allow you to use the ki focus's enhancement bonuses and properties and powers for weapon attacks. While doing so, the mundane properties of that weapon are in use, but any magical properties, powers, etc. cannot be used during this time.

Ki focuses are used with weapons with weapon powers only. Monks don't naturally get those, so this rule rarely comes into play for them. However, this rule is applicable to multiclassing and hybrid monks... it's no small coincidence that ki focuses were printed in the same book the hybrid class was. As well, ki focuses are also a viable reason to multiclass into monk, for classes that use multiple weapons or weapons and implements.

As for the accurate dagger: I kinda like accurate ki focus myself. Tho, bear in mind, superior implement traits cannot be used with weapon attacks.

 

[tobiasosir]

I'll explain this in detail, going from the general rule down to the specific.

Regarding your implement powers and ki focuses:

Implement powers only allow you to use one implement with them.


....nothing changes this. So if you have a ki focus or a weapon, it's one or the other. You cannot use both at the same time, and you cannot use the ki focus through the weapon. Nothing allows you to do this.

Weapon powers require one weapon to be used with them, and use the weapon's properties.
--Magic weapons allow you to use their enhancement bonuses and properties and powers.
----Ki focuses allow you to use the ki focus's enhancement bonuses and properties and powers for weapon attacks. While doing so, the mundane properties of that weapon are in use, but any magical properties, powers, etc. cannot be used during this time.

Ki focuses are used with weapons with weapon powers only. Monks don't naturally get those, so this rule rarely comes into play for them. However, this rule is applicable to multiclassing and hybrid monks... it's no small coincidence that ki focuses were printed in the same book the hybrid class was. As well, ki focuses are also a viable reason to multiclass into monk, for classes that use multiple weapons or weapons and implements.

As for the accurate dagger: I kinda like accurate ki focus myself. Tho, bear in mind, superior implement traits cannot be used with weapon attacks.

I guess accurate Ki focus would work nicely with any weapon I want to use it with. Maybe I'll try playing with that in the builds...

As for the implement/ki focuses question; this is very clear now, thank you. basically, one or the other. This actually makes my choice a bit easier, because I'm not too fond of the ki focuses I can get at this level (because of the level of the items we can select for the character). The one I've picked is the vanilla +2 magic ki focus.
But the superior ones look interesting. I like the fluid one for mobility and the iron one for extra FoB. I'll play with those. Accurate would help my to hit, certainly.

But I may end up just going weaponless. The Urgrosh build I have doesn't use a ki focus because the stats are better without it.
The unarmed build is good for a ki focus i think because I can use that on the unarmed attack and any improvised weapon I come across. That build also uses a Ki Cutting Wheel, but I assume I can choose to not use the Ki Focus when I use that weapon to get the benefit to my FoB instead. Or in using it for my Unarmed strike, does it apply to everything I'm wielding?

I'm starting to think I should do without the Ki Focus...

 

[DracoSuave]

The catch with Flurry of Blows is that it is not an implement power. On top of this, ki focuses that give benefits to Flurry of Blows tend to require that you make the attack with that ki focus.

So, if you're using a magic weapon, you can't switch to your ki focus to give benefits to your Flurry of Blows.

Also, multiple ki focuses can't be switched easily, it must be done during a rest.

On top of this, the accurate bonus of a ki focus has nothing to do with weapon attacks. Only implement attacks. On the other hand, Superior Implement Proficiency does an interesting thing with ki focuses... unlike other implements where you have to have the feat that corresponds to that superior implement... ki focuses don't have superior versions. Instead, you attune yourself and you treat ALL ki focuses you find as tho they were superior.

Honestly, I think you're focusing WAY too much on weapon/weaponless and missing the point. You're a melee range wizard. You're essentially a spellcaster at melee range. Your weapon doesn't do much outside of its magic properties, and feat interractions.

Urgosh? Brings -nothing- to the table. The axe part is absolutely useless for a monk. The spear part can be accomplished with simple weapons. Who cares about MBAs? You're a monk. MBAs are not your problem.

Improvised weapons!?!

Look at your monk powers. Start your creation from there. Get things that make THOSE better. Everything with green, red, and black stripes is your primary gameplan. An extra use of flurry of blows?!? A daily item power to do a small amount of damage once per day is not worth itemizing for.

-------------------------------------------

Alright, so you want to use a ki weapon. Your gameplan, then, is to maximize the use you get out of Flurry of Blows. Crashing Tempest style also increases FoB damage! So you go with that. That means your ki weapon must be a club. Clubs are mace-type weapons... so you're going to invest in Dex primary, Con secondary, Str tertiary, only to get it to the point where you can Hammer Rhythm.

Now, to get more Flurry of Blows, you need to hit more. To hit more, you either need to be more accurate, or make more attacks. Monks can do both.

Your next step is to decide on your powers--this is the most important part of your gameplan. Discussion of weapons, magic items, everything else? Powers are how you do your business. Get business taken care of first.

At-will powers are the bread and butter of what you are doing. You use them more often than anything else. Your game plan starts there. As Con-based, Iron Soul is going to be your Monastic Tradition. +1 shield bonus to AC, and 2+Con Flurry damage. +4 with this build and a ki club. Monks also have two AoE At-wills to choose from. Five Storms is a Close burst 1, and Steel Wind is a Close blast 2. Which is very odd. The cool thing about either of these powers is that they BOTH only target enemies. This means you can spam them without caring about your friends.... oh... and if you get dominated you'll only have access to melee basic attack.

The game plan becomes to try to attack as many enemies as once as you can. This will maximise the number of successful attacks you make, which in turn will maximise the number of turns you can access Flurry of Blows.

 

[tobiasosir]

The only reason I'm wondering about weapons and how they interact with the ki focuses and such is because I've multiclassed into Runepriest--I know, not the optimal or expected choice!--and would like to have a good option for those powers. That's why I'd originally thought urgrosh, though it's not the best option because I'd only be using that for one or two powers.
As for using ki focuses or not; If i don't, I can get a nice magic weapon to use as an implement, as well as the RP weapon attacks; if I do, I lose magic weapon properties and have fewer options for the weapon attacks.

But you're right: I'm putting too much convoluted thought into it! In the end, most combinations I come up with in the cb give me the same bonuses: +10 to hit, +6 damage, overall 21-22 AC. I've been looking for a way to get the best of all worlds, when I should just settle for good synergy.

Look at your monk powers.
-------------------------------------------
Alright, so you want to use a ki weapon. Your gameplan, then, is to maximize the use you get out of Flurry of Blows. Crashing Tempest style also increases FoB damage! So you go with that. That means your ki weapon must be a club. Clubs are mace-type weapons... so you're going to invest in Dex primary, Con secondary, Str tertiary, only to get it to the point where you can Hammer Rhythm.

Now, to get more Flurry of Blows, you need to hit more. To hit more, you either need to be more accurate, or make more attacks. Monks can do both.

Your next step is to decide on your powers--this is the most important part of your gameplan. Discussion of weapons, magic items, everything else? Powers are how you do your business. Get business taken care of first.

At-will powers are the bread and butter of what you are doing. You use them more often than anything else. Your game plan starts there. As Con-based, Iron Soul is going to be your Monastic Tradition. +1 shield bonus to AC, and 2+Con Flurry damage. +4 with this build and a ki club. Monks also have two AoE At-wills to choose from. Five Storms is a Close burst 1, and Steel Wind is a Close blast 2. Which is very odd. The cool thing about either of these powers is that they BOTH only target enemies. This means you can spam them without caring about your friends.... oh... and if you get dominated you'll only have access to melee basic attack.

The game plan becomes to try to attack as many enemies as once as you can. This will maximise the number of successful attacks you make, which in turn will maximise the number of turns you can access Flurry of Blows.

So. What I really want out of this character is a good to hit bonus, and a bonus to my FoB. The overall intent is to deal lots of damage every round, like a striker should. That's why I was hung up on the Ki weapon, which is an automatic +2 as long as I wield it. But the Ki Focus gives me a better all around bonus (applying also to the Unarmed strike, which I can use with my RP powers), so I'd rather go there. Not to mention a better TH; if I can't hit, I can't use the FoB anyway!

I'd decided on powers a while ago, so I'm good there. I have about a half/half mix of melee and burst/blast powers, and cover both attacks against reflex and fort. I hadn't thought of the multiple attack rolls for the burst powers leading to more chances to score a hit and use FoB, but that's a nice thing to keep in mind.

Crashing tempest style sounds like a good compromise with the extra FoB damage. A club in one hand, the other unarmed; and with the workup in the CB I still have between a +10 and +13 TH and a +6 damage for each power, and my FoB would deal 9 damage on every hit.
The only thing missing from this build that I was hoping to get is an AC of 22. This puts me at 21 which is still decent; and, I'm thinking, i can invest a magic item into a neck slot item for bonuses to reflex/fort/will instead of another magic weapon. The Iron Soul tradition would give that extra boost, but I went with Stone Fist so I have the strength bonus for my RP powers.

Playing without a Ki focus, I tried two magic cutting wheels, one of which is a Ki weapon (think the Wind and Fire wheels of tai chi). This gives the AC of 22, and the same bonuses. The drawback is that the RP powers drop from a d8 to a d6. Less damage, but I love the flavour.