Building a thiefy warlock? Or a magey rogue?

[AbdulAlhazred]

There's nothing particularly wrong with Swarm Druid. Just need to recognize that Con is a Swarm Druid's 3rd stat, not 2nd. A 12-14 starting value in Constitution that never gets leveled up is fine.

Beguiler's a great theme, one of my favorite.

Well.... but that IS kind of a problem. There's a LOT of druid powers that assume CON is your 2nd stat. There are SOME that base or can base off of DEX, but you're definitely giving up a decent amount when you go to DEX as your secondary stat. Then the question is, what are you gaining? If you have CON as a tertiary you're gaining maybe 1 or 2 points of DR, and giving up a lot of small bennies to keep your AC competitive. OR you have to tank your AC to go with CON and you lack, now, any feat to rectify that effectively. The point is, swarm druid is simply not competitive. You can simply be a predator or guardian and flavor your wild shape as a bunch of insects, you end up better off in all respects.

So, no, Swarm Druid isn't TERRIBLE, but without the benefit of being able to switch your AC to CON its simply never a good build mechanically. If you CAN do the switch, then you can get a pretty good AC and a real hefty DR, which is sweet. Not crazy, but actually worthwhile. The nerfing of the feat was aimed at barbarians anyway, it was just lack of any way to make it more specific that caught the Swarm Druid in the crossfire. In classic WotC 4e fashion they never seemed to care about collateral damage.

 

[MwaO]

Well.... but that IS kind of a problem. There's a LOT of druid powers that assume CON is your 2nd stat. There are SOME that base or can base off of DEX, but you're definitely giving up a decent amount when you go to DEX as your secondary stat. Then the question is, what are you gaining? If you have CON as a tertiary you're gaining maybe 1 or 2 points of DR, and giving up a lot of small bennies to keep your AC competitive. OR you have to tank your AC to go with CON and you lack, now, any feat to rectify that effectively. The point is, swarm druid is simply not competitive. You can simply be a predator or guardian and flavor your wild shape as a bunch of insects, you end up better off in all respects.

But you're not. You take a little less damage than you would as the other choices and in exchange, you don't pick Constitution-based powers.

That's not really that hard of a choice for a Druid because Druid's really awesome power choices don't particularly care about Constitution. There's a Dex-choice or two that would be nice to have as a Predator, but you can live without it. And given Serpent's Cunning, there's actually a decent argument that the best Druids are ones who go 13 Con/18 Int/18 Wis/11 Dex or Cha, MC Wizard, and then cast Serpent's Cunning on themselves to get +1 to hit with any Wizard powers they swap for.

And once you go Int, might as well get the best benefit.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But you're not. You take a little less damage than you would as the other choices and in exchange, you don't pick Constitution-based powers.

That's not really that hard of a choice for a Druid because Druid's really awesome power choices don't particularly care about Constitution. There's a Dex-choice or two that would be nice to have as a Predator, but you can live without it. And given Serpent's Cunning, there's actually a decent argument that the best Druids are ones who go 13 Con/18 Int/18 Wis/11 Dex or Cha, MC Wizard, and then cast Serpent's Cunning on themselves to get +1 to hit with any Wizard powers they swap for.

And once you go Int, might as well get the best benefit.

I'd think trading sucky riders on ALL your powers just to get a +1 when using a MAX of about 3 powers a day, unless you do crazy stuff, would be a bad bargain all around TBH. Obviously you'd have no AC problems with this build, but...

And yes, you CAN live with just DEX secondary and avoid every CON based rider power, but there are a LOT of good powers you'll be left out of. I mean its not terrible, you're certainly going to have a reasonably effective character, and maybe with all the druid support that rolled in in HotFK, HotEC, and HotFW its less of an issue than it was in the days of PP. I really haven't done that extensive building with the more recent sources, as we've not had a lot of play time in the last couple years, nor is there anyone running a druid these days. In fact it was one of those classes that pretty much never got much attention in our games, cool as it is.

Swarm Druid just seems to be left slightly 'out there' without quite having a really compelling argument in its favor. Its in much the same boat as Beastmaster and a few other builds. They WORK, and in fact if you have a player and DM that are willing to work on it a little bit, then many of these builds can be quite cool and perfectly effective in an overall sense.

 

[MwaO]

I'd think trading sucky riders on ALL your powers just to get a +1 when using a MAX of about 3 powers a day, unless you do crazy stuff, would be a bad bargain all around TBH. Obviously you'd have no AC problems with this build, but...

You're having a Wizard encounter power via Novice Power and access to a Wizard Paragon Path. When you're using 2 Int-based encounter attack powers every encounter, it makes a noticeable difference. And you get a free skill and +2 to all Int-based skills - it is really useful...

just seems to be left slightly 'out there' without quite having a really compelling argument in its favor. Its in much the same boat as Beastmaster and a few other builds. They WORK, and in fact if you have a player and DM that are willing to work on it a little bit, then many of these builds can be quite cool and perfectly effective in an overall sense.

There are some relatively strong choices(Magic Stones, Wind Wall, Charm Beast, Infiltrating Drone) that don't even look at Constitution. Planeshifter has a Remove From Play(Save Ends) encounter power as an E11. Prismatic Burst/Dark Gathering are really strong E13s that do things that there really isn't the equivalent available for Druid. Summon Giant Toad/Clinging Drone are good daily powers and there are tons of great Wizard 9 choices.

No constitution for any of them.

 

[Roseweave]

I don't think a Swarm Druid will work for this character because the stats/skills don't match up sadly. There's no really awesome way to make a full on Spidery character of course so there's always going to be compromise. But this character is more of a sneaky sort so I'll be going with Chaos Soul Sorcerer or some sort of high dex Warlock.

However I do like the idea of playin a Swarm Druid "Bees Mage".

 

[Joshua Randall]

Just for lulz and because I was bored, I looked in the DDI Compendium for character focused stuff with the word 'spider' in it. Here you go.

[sblock=big list of 'spider' search results]
Search Results: Backgrounds (1) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Type Campaign Associated Skills Source
Underdark Survivor Racial General Dungeoneering, Nature Primal Power

Search Results: Character Themes (7) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Source
Athasian Minstrel Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Elderboy Multiple Sources
House Priestess Multiple Sources
Melee-Magthere Champion Multiple Sources
Ooze Master Multiple Sources
Secret Apostate Multiple Sources
Widow of Arach-Tinilith Multiple Sources

Search Results: Companions & Familiars (6) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Type Source
Simian Companion Dragon Magazine 392
Spider Companion Martial Power
Crysmalite Elemental Companion Heroes of the Elemental Chaos
Spider Familiar Multiple Sources
Spiderling of Lolth Familiar Multiple Sources
Crawling Clot Familiar Dragon Magazine 377

Search Results: Epic Destinies (1) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Prerequisite(s) Source
Redeemed Drow 21st level, drow race Dragon Magazine 367

Search Results: Feats (7) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Tier Source
Corellon's Wrath Style Dragon Magazine 373
Drow Heretic Heroic Dragon Magazine 367
Hunting Spider Style Heroic Multiple Sources
Venomous Spider Heroic Martial Power 2
Spider's Swiftness Heroic Primal Power
Spider Charmer Paragon Dragon Magazine 382
Poisonous Beast Paragon Martial Power 2

Search Results: Items (23) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Category Level Cost Rarity Source
Aarakocra Feather Armor Armor Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Dragoncloth Armor Armor Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Giantweave Armor Armor Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Kestrekel Feather Armor Armor Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Spidersilk Armor Armor Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Wyrmsilk Armor Armor Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Zy Tormtor's Trinkets Item Set Heroic Adventurer's Vault 2
The Hand of Vecna Artifact Rare Dungeon Master's Guide
Rod of Seven Parts Artifact Rare Dungeon Master's Guide 2
Von Zarovich Family Sword Artifact Rare Open Grave
Spiderweb Dream Net Equipment 30 gp Heroes of the Feywild
Spider Bolt Ammunition 3+ 30+ gp Uncommon Multiple Sources
Spidersilk Mantle Neck 3+ 680+ gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault 2
Boots of Spider Climbing Feet 5 1,000 gp Uncommon Player's Handbook
Spiderkissed Weapon Weapon 7+ 2,600+ gp Uncommon Dragon Magazine 367
Spiderweb Robes Armor 8+ 3,400+ gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault 2
Bag of Tricks, Gray Wondrous 8 3,400 gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault
Spider Potion Consumable 20 5,000 gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault
Bloodstone Spider Wondrous 11 9,000 gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault
Blade Spider Equipment 13,000 gp Adventurer's Vault
Spider Rod Implement 13+ 17,000+ gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault 2
Bag of Tricks, Rust Wondrous 18 85,000 gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault
Bag of Tricks, Vermilion Wondrous 28 2,125,000 gp Uncommon Adventurer's Vault


Search Results: Paragon Paths (3) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Prerequisite Source
Curseborn Drow Dragon Magazine 367
Dread Fang Drow, rogue Martial Power
Azure Guard Eladrin or elf, must worship Corellon Dragon Magazine 394

Search Results: Powers (41) Results per page: 20 | 50 | 100
Name Class Level Action Type Source
Spider Charmer Feat Power Standard Dragon Magazine 382
Aspect of the Lurking Spider Ranger Minor Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms
Devious Strike Theme Power Free Multiple Sources
Lurking Spider Theme Power Immediate Reaction Multiple Sources
Driving the Quarry Ranger 1 Standard Martial Power
Enclose the Prey Ranger 1 Standard Martial Power
Spider Spirits Seeker 1 Standard Player's Handbook 3
Skittering Sneak Druid 2 Free Player's Handbook 2
Web Trick Ranger 2 Free Dragon Magazine 392
Blade Spider's Lunge Theme Power 2 Minor Multiple Sources
Spider Scuttle Warlock 2 Free Multiple Sources
Eyes of the Spider Queen Warlock 2 Minor Arcane Power
Beast Latch Ranger 3 Standard Martial Power
Form of the Primeval Spider Druid 5 Minor Dragon Magazine 383
Primal Spider Druid 5 Standard Dragon Magazine 382
Defensive Posture Ranger 6 Immediate Interrupt Martial Power
Dance of the Phase Spider Theme Power 6 Minor Multiple Sources
Spider Queen's Caress Warlock 6 Minor Arcane Power
Spider Climb Warlock 6 Move Multiple Sources
Harried Quarry Ranger 7 Standard Martial Power
Crystal Spider Poison Theme Power 7 Standard Dark Sun Campaign Setting
Limbs of the Tree Spider Warden 7 Standard Dragon Magazine 379
Spider Thicket Seeker 9 Standard Dragon Magazine 413
Horrifying Hatching Warlock 9 Standard Arcane Power
Spider Technique Monk 10 Move Player's Handbook 3
Spider Dodge Skill Power 10 Immediate Interrupt Dragon Magazine 389
Spider's Leap Swordmage 10 Move Arcane Power
Beg Lolth's Favor Theme Power 10 Minor Multiple Sources
Banished Darkness Azure Guard 11 Standard Dragon Magazine 394
Spider Feint Dread Fang 12 Minor Martial Power
Herd the Prey Ranger 13 Standard Martial Power
Blood Frenzy Ranger 15 Standard Martial Power
Pack Stealth Ranger 16 Minor Martial Power
Fate Weaver's Shield Shaman 16 Minor Player's Handbook 2
Mare’s Body Wizard 16 Minor Heroes of the Feywild
Hounding Beast Ranger 17 Standard Martial Power
Tendrils of the Fate Weaver Shaman 19 Standard Player's Handbook 2
Chase Down Ranger 23 Standard Martial Power
Primal Rampage Ranger 25 Standard Martial Power
Form of the Entangling Spider Warden 25 Minor Primal Power
Beastly Vise Ranger 27 Standard Martial Power[/sblock]

 

[Roseweave]

It looks like Warlock is sooo much a better choice than Wild Sorcerer(though maybe a Multiclass feat into Sorcerer would work). It's great for Spidery stuff - the main problem is that there seems to be no function for Dex in the Warlock class. Or is there? The one thing I dislike about 4E is that there's little flexibility when it comes to this stuff. The one thing I notice is that Binder Gloom Pact stuff seems to work off Dex, but apparently Binder is weak as a class. What if I mutliclassed Warlock|Binder?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It looks like Warlock is sooo much a better choice than Wild Sorcerer(though maybe a Multiclass feat into Sorcerer would work). It's great for Spidery stuff - the main problem is that there seems to be no function for Dex in the Warlock class. Or is there? The one thing I dislike about 4E is that there's little flexibility when it comes to this stuff. The one thing I notice is that Binder Gloom Pact stuff seems to work off Dex, but apparently Binder is weak as a class. What if I mutliclassed Warlock|Binder?

Well, Warlock is a very MAD class, unfortunately. You've got CHA and CON as primaries, and INT as a secondary in the main pacts. You can of course just ignore INT and focus purely on either CHA or CON as a primary, and then throw a bunch of points into DEX. You'll lose out some on combat optimization, but as it stands today there's a HUGE amount of options for Warlocks, so you can certainly pick and choose powers that will work for you, and if say CON or INT is your 3rd stat you won't be buggered in any terrible way.

There's a limited amount of stuff you can loot from Binder. I really don't know which powers might be decent. The +1 attack bonus against creatures that have no other ally adjacent to them, which you can get with hybrid, doesn't sound bad, but being stuck taking a fair number of binder powers might not make up for that... lol. Like all the HoS classes it also got NO support to speak of, so its not like you can add access to some nice PP, feat, etc with it. I'm sure [MENTION=6794638]MA[/MENTION]oW and his catalog of handbook knowledge can tell you in great detail what to do/not do in that department. Honestly I just never saw Binder as having anything really unique. Anything it has that is decent you can pick up by just being a warlock, and its class features aren't really exceptional.

 

[Roseweave]

It DOES have dex secondary powers, though. It's also possibly to mostly ignore Con as a warlock, though obviously I'll be a bit squishy. A mixture of Fey and Gloom pact seems to give me the best range of stuff for this build. I don't know if I want to go for Dark Pact.

Only problem is I'm having trouble getting training in Acrobatics or Stealth. I also kind of need perception to be a good scout. I'll probably need to take a lot of skill related feats.

 

[MwaO]

Warlock can't MC/hybrid Binder and the Binder powers generally aren't particularly good in any case. A Wild Sorcerer could MC Binder(and frankly, not a bad decision to have a 1/enc 'hey, you can't see me!' on a Sorcerer after you just showed what a threat you are...)

Don't actually go Binder. Really bad class. But as a hybrid, can be decent - Sorcerer|Binder gets to pick Warlock powers instead of being limited to a very small number of Binder powers...