Bull Rush: To Hit?

[Caliber]

Recently while running my players through Deep Horizon, the party's Rogue was on the unfortunate end of a Bull Rush.

It was always my understanding that Bull Rushes did NOT require a to-hit roll, and assuming that the AoO they provoked missed, were automatic hits.

The Rogue objected.

So which way is it? Did I cheat the Rogue out of a chance to dodge?

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Description: A character can bull rush as an attack action or a charge action.

I think that means you have to make an attack roll somewhere (perhaps a melee touch attack?).

If you're not convinced: You can pass through an occupied square by anyone that lets you pass through it (IIRC). The rogue could simple have let the bull rusher through, no?

Maitre D

 

[Pielorinho]

Show your player the text of the combat action: nowhere does it call for an attack roll.

It does seem reasonable to me, however, that you'd be able to sidestep a Bull Rush; I'm not sure what would constitute a good, elegant mechanic for resolving such an attempt.

Maybe allow a defender to use dex instead of str on the opposed check; if the defender succeeds, the attacker goes forward a number of feet equal to the difference between the two checks but doesn't take the defender along for the ride. This would have the advantage of allowing for the cinematic step-to-the-side-as-the-bad-guy-goes-hurtling-off-the-cliff maneuver, but it would have the disadvantage of making bull rushes even more rarely attempted. Perhaps this could be resolved by giving a -4 penalty on the defender's check if she tries to do this.

Daniel

Bull rush [Standard][AoO: Yes]
Description: A character can bull rush as an attack action or a charge action.
When a character bull rushes, the character attempts to push an opponent straight back instead of attacking him. A character can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than the character, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, the character moves into the defender's space. Moving in this way provokes an attack of opportunity from each foe that threatens the character, probably including the defender. Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against the character during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than the character against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the character.
Second, the character and the defender make opposed Strength checks. The character adds a +4 bonus for each size category that the character is above Medium-size or a -4 penalty for each size category that the character is below Medium-size. The character gets a +2 charge bonus if the Bull Rush is attempted at the end of a Charge. The defender gets a +4 stability bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Bull Rush Results: If the character beat the defender, the character pushes the defender back 5 feet. If the character wishes to move with the defender, the character can push the defender back up to a distance of an additional 1 foot for each point by which the character exceeded the defender's check result. A character can't, however, exceed his or her normal movement limit.
If the character fails to beat the defender's Strength check, the character moves 5 feet straight back. If that space is occupied, the character falls prone in that space.

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

This would have the advantage of allowing for the cinematic step-to-the-side-as-the-bad-guy-goes-hurtling-off-the-cliff maneuver,

This also could be done by using a ready action to get out of the way of the bull rusher once he closes in...

TS

 

[Pielorinho]

This also could be done by using a ready action to get out of the way of the bull rusher once he closes in...

TS

Not according to a strict reading -- according to a strict reading, charging characters can stop on a dime, and the bull-rusher could do this as well. But your mechanic might be nice, inasmuch as it doesn't make bullrushes as useless.

As a third idea, how about allowing a defender to tumble out of the way of a bull-rush? The DC of this check would equal 20+attacker's attack bonus, counting any charge bonus, and the defender would use up an AoO to do so.

Daniel

 

[coyote6]

Would requiring a melee touch attack make it too difficult a maneuver to pull off? That would let the dextrous types dodge the lumbering rhinos, and (if you use the fumble rules) would allow the bull rusher to trip, run off the cliff, etc.

 

[Caliber]

So the consensus goes that there is no attack roll required?

Doding is a moot point seeing as the Efreeti Bull Rushed him while invisible. Into lava.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Not according to a strict reading -- according to a strict reading, charging characters can stop on a dime, and the bull-rusher could do this as well. But your mechanic might be nice, inasmuch as it doesn't make bullrushes as useless.

Well, they CAN stop on a dime. But they still can't change direction and still call their attack a charge...

IOW if someone charges you, and you move while they're moving , their charge can no longer hit you.

As a third idea, how about allowing a defender to tumble out of the way of a bull-rush? The DC of this check would equal 20+attacker's attack bonus, counting any charge bonus, and the defender would use up an AoO to do so.
Daniel

Except then it makes such an act only possible if you can tumble.

Personally I think it should require a touch attack, just like any of the other alternate attack forms - otherwise it's even less level-dependant than trip, the godsend to low level characters...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've always assumed that there was no attack roll, but the discerning bull rushee could use his AoO to attempt a trip or some other similar attack which would be guaranteed to negate the bull rush (if successful). If the bull rushee was armed with a spear and hit with the AoO I'd allow them the double damage they'd normally get if the spear was set against a charge.

I wouldn't go for a touch attack though, because the attacker is trying to cannon into them, and not just tag them.

Cheers