But is it Art?

[two_fishes]

Painting my house isn't art.

I think painting your house can be art. Are you doing for no other reason than to protect your house from the weather with no interest in colour? Not art. Are you at all interested in picking colours that are pleasing to the eye? Art.

Singing happy birthday isn't art.

I think that singing happy birthday can be art. Are you singing just to fit in with everyone else? Not art. Are you doing it to amuse someone? Art.

I think you (or rather Mr. McCloud) is confusing art with crap.

No. As a couple of other people have pointed out, I think you are making a mistake by insisting that only good art is really art. Even if something is crap, it can still be art. Art can be stupid, trivial, or vulgar.

I consider anything produced in an attempt to provoke an aesthetic response to be art. By aesthetic I mean this:

aes·thet·ic
3. pertaining to, involving, or concerned with pure emotion and sensation as opposed to pure intellectuality.

Is an RPG text intended to provoke an emotional response or arouse the senses? If so then yes, it is art. Is the RPG text intended as an intellectual exercise? If so, then no, it is not art.

I think I might say that game rules in general are not art, but rather are created to provide a framework for making specific kinds of art. Playing games, in general, is art.

This definition does, I think, exclude the Marcel Duchamp piece you referenced. It was made for an intellectual purpose, to make a statement about what is and is not art. It was not made to provoke an aesthetic response. It is not art. By way of another example, this is the difference between Aristophanes' Clouds and Plato's Republic. The former is art, the latter not.

Or maybe not.

To be honest I think that asking whether or not this or that is art is not a very important question (although it may be a fun question). It actually skips past the more important question. The more important question is Why does someone want to call something art? Is it to change the way that thing is appraised and talked about? Are you (the general you) trying to legitimize your activity for a particular audience? What does calling RPGs art mean? Does it change them?

 

[pneumatik]

Oh, dear the poor dadaists!
So even if they explicitly state that it isn't art (i.e. they're very sure it isn't) they cannot help creating art.

Btw. here's my favorite example when I think about dadaism: Marcel Duchamp, Fountain

Basically, you take an everyday item, sign it and call it art in an attempt to show that this _is not_ how you create art (and anyone considering it art is basically an idiot).

Basically, what your opinion on art reminds me of is one of Nirvana's last concerts:
No matter what Kurt Cobain did, the fans were cheering and thought it was brilliant. Imho, that attitude was largely responsible for him comitting suicide:
If it no longer matters what you do and the public's appreciation of your work doesn't change no matter how much of your heart and soul went into its creation, there's really nothing you can do anymore. It's a weird reversal of 'throwing pearls before swine'.

I get what the Dadaists were doing better now (thanks!). I think it's brilliant in its way. They can call it un-art if they want, but it meets all the non-content-based standards I've seen other people throw out for art. I'm sure Dadaists liked what other Dadaists did, and from that perspective I don't know how they could un-ironically consider it un-art. It may have been more performance art than creating a work of art, but "artist" seems like a good word to describe the Dadaist. They may not be artists by their definitions, but they are by (at least) mine.

At this point I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I recognize that other people, like you, have different standards for what you consider art than me. It's not bad and it helps to remind me that other people use a different definition than me for their own reasons.

 

[Meatboy]

Ok sorry about the delay but let's get back into it.

So, if art is a dialogue between artist and viewer whereby the artist presents a particular world view, consciously or not, then I would like to propose that the original Dungeons and Dragons by Gygax and Arneson is art.

Firstly DnD was new when it was created there was nothing else like it. It created the context that all subsequent dialogue/art/rpgs stem from. With out the creativity that went into this game we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Also I think DnD can best illustrate the views of its artist if only for the reason that not many people were involved. As you throw more people into the creative process you end up with world views that become so diluted that they are not even noticeable. Art, I think, is not something that can be created by committee.
Like a knife, which can be both a useful tool as well as a beautiful piece in and of itself, DnD also has a nice esthetic too it. Everything from the prose that they chose to art does a job of drawing you into their idea and gives you a very good sense of what the game is and the feeling they want to create. I find the art in particular espouses these ideas. With pictures that are inspiring, tense and oftentimes humorous or even ridiculous and if those don't spell out what DnD is for most of us I don't know what does.

I'm unsure of what else needs to be said about ODnD as art. Like most art it engages me both emotionally and intellectually. It makes me want to share and experience Gygax's and Arneson's vision. That is what I think makes it art.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

...I would like to propose that the original Dungeons and Dragons by Gygax and Arneson is art.

Thank you for the suggestion. You are the first to recommend OD&D. I wonder if anyone else will.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Just a polite bump.

The nominees so far include;

Castle Falkenstien
Original Dungeons and Dragons Set
Charnel Houses of Europe

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

William400
has no status.

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 10
Novice (Lvl 1)

Reported

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

...a kind of performance art.

It's been said before - what is your point, assuming you have one?