[C&C, AD&D, oD&D] The best of the old stuff...

[Professor Phobos]

So I've become interested in C&C recently, despite it going counter to my normal gaming preferences. God help me this interest won't go away, and it lead me to look at all the various old D&D books available on PDF. Since it is apparently very easy to convert any generation of D&D product into C&C, I've started to think I might actually be able to get utility out of products that were before my time but no doubt had some excellent stuff in them.

I've heard great things about Birthright, Dark Sun, Ravenloft and Planescape (particularly since I love Torment), for example. So what were the best books of Old D&D and AD&D? I never really got into them, having started with Call of Cthulhu.

I've also found, for some reason, that I have the inexplicable urge to purchase books with nothing but magic items and/or spells in them, and the various compendiums of AD&D seem like they would scratch that itch.

I'm looking for good setting bits in particular, and stuff that'd be good for bringing into C&C, particularly new classes, since I like lots of classes in class-based games.

I have nothing against obsessively focused or "generic vanilla fantasy" books, either- if it's a good book about nothing but Mind Flayers or it's your standard "Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits" setting, I don't mind. I never got that stuff out of my system.

 

[diaglo]

OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.

 

[S'mon]

I'm finding the following books most helpful for my C&C campaign:

Moldvay 1981 Basic D&D - for dungeon creation, encounter & treasure tables

Cook-Marsh 1981 Expert D&D - for wilderness adventures

Rules Cyclopedia D&D - for usable dragon stats

1e AD&D DMG - for territory development, wilderness adventures, hireling levels, high level followers, etc etc

1977 1e AD&D Monster Manual - for demons & devils

1e AD&D Fiend Folio - for additional monsters.

C&C is really lacking on advice for creating adventures; the dungeon & wilderness adventure guidelines in Moldvay-Cook D&D are simply the clearest and best I know. It also lacks guidelines for hirelings and for territory development.

 

[Professor Phobos]

I should clarify- I don't need help running games, or creating adventures. What I'm more interested in is monsters, classes, settings, magic items, etc. Stuff, rather than guidelines.

 

[diaglo]

I should clarify- I don't need help running games, or creating adventures. What I'm more interested in is monsters, classes, settings, magic items, etc. Stuff, rather than guidelines.

the rules are guidelines.

always have been. always will be.

 

[Professor Phobos]

the rules are guidelines.

always have been. always will be.

I'm really just looking for things like, "That book on Mind Flayers was really cool!" or "The Divine Haberdasher Class in the Complete Divine Haberdasher was nifty!"

Like, I get that I'm not beholden to the rules. But that's not really what I'm asking about!

I want someone to tell me why Dark Sun was awesome (if it was, indeed, awesome). I'm looking for things to scavenge for C&C purposes. I'm asking because all this stuff was before my time- TSR was around in the early days of my gaming, but I've never actually purchased a D&D product before. I started with Call of Cthulhu. I have no idea what were the high points of AD&D books. And so on.

 

[Clueless]

Ok, I suspect there's some confusion here - you're working with about 3 back versions of the game here (more if you want to get picky about it diaglo ). So we're a little fuzzy on which information in which system you looking for... from your last post it sounds like you're looking for setting information. What folks would term 'fluff'.

The general DnD setting (aka, Greyhawk I think?) doesn't have a lot of material for it. As far as I know, the most *setting* information you'll find for anything prior to 2nd ed will be in modules and monster manuals. There were no 'mind flayer/specific critter' books released for ODnD and 1st, there weren't any 'complete X series' - all of that nice flavour stuff you're looking for isn't there - way back when the oldtimers were expected to come up with their own.

It sounds like you need to be looking an edition up - at 2nd ed. There, the 'main' setting still was rather sparse - but setting information for Planescape, Athas etc. exists. Settings became more of a detailed thing in 2nd. The 'complete' series came out in 2nd ed as well. So, that's definately where you need to be looking.

The problem there is - there's a *LOT* of it. The sheer number of settings out there is what sorta killed the production lines for TSR. Too many balls in the air. So... are you just looking for a perusal of everything 'good'? (The obvious answer: absolutely everything Planescape ... )

Do you have a style of game in mind for us to use as a way to judge if it'll be good for you?
Or alternatively, should we just go round by setting and pick out the fluff highlights? (again - *everything* planescape )

 

[Professor Phobos]

Well, I figured...

1. People like talking about things they like
2. Lots of people here would have liked things from the olden days

And I'd get a wide-range of recommendations. If a Planescape fan wants to opine on Planescape, be my guest. If a Forgotten Realms guru wants to explain why Elminster wasn't exceedingly irritating, I'm all ears.

I have no "specifically" in mind. I guess I'm more interested in AD&D stuff than D&D stuff, since it seems like there'd be more to convert into C&C. Like, I dunno, a "Swashbuckler" class. Surely one appeared somewhere? I hate coming up with "You get X Ability at Y Level" stuff; old AD&D stuff would do it for me. This is one of the attractive qualities of C&C, I hear, since it is mostly a matter of flipping Armor Class and ignoring THAC0.

But, hmm, let's try some specific questions, get the ball rolling:

1. How good were the "Van Richten" Guides for Ravenloft?
2. When did Dark Sun jump the shark?
3. If one only purchased three products for Planescape, what would they be?
4. Any good books on Hell?
5. Monster Manuals! What's in which books? Which ones were good?

I have no real style in mind. I basically intend to one day run a game that shamelessly rips off every damn fantasy setting I've ever encountered. Midnight, the Black Company, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Malazan Books of the Fallen, Planescape: Torment, The Elder Scrolls, Conan, Dunsany, Tolkien, hell, even Dune. I figured I might as well rip off some D&D/AD&D stuff as well.

I'm just trawling for stuff to steal and put into a big pot, wherein I will cook a mighty hodgepodge of flavor.

 

[thedungeondelver]

I should clarify- I don't need help running games, or creating adventures. What I'm more interested in is monsters, classes, settings, magic items, etc. Stuff, rather than guidelines.

Okay.

Stuff.

Let's go down the list:

DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE - this is literally chock full of "stuff". You want magic items? This is the grandaddy of all magic item books. From mundane potions all the way up to the Apparatus of Kwalish, to the Manual of the Planes this book has items. And the text for them literally drips inspiration. Consider the dreaded "Tzoonk Fragment" from the abovementioned Manual, or the details on the awesome Sphere of Annihilation.

PLAYERS HANDBOOK. Okay, you asked about classes? Well the "PHB" is the place to start. You've got your four basics - fighters, magic-users, thieves and clerics. But underneath that there's six more variants and huge combinations thereof (not just for demi-humans; there's dual-classing for your more gifted humans). Tack on UNEARTHED ARCANA and that grows to include three new classes (DANGER WILL ROBINSON: DO NOT PUT PALADINS AS A CAVALIER SUBTYPE! LEAVE THEM AS FIGHTERS!), more combinations, oh and more spells and magic items (most of which were detailed out in earlier modules). I know my fellow 1e'ers are going to throw rotten fruit at me for saying this but if you tweak UNEARTHED ARCANA and (as a DM) are very careful with it you can ease in some of the other details without too many problems.

The MONSTER MANUAL - the title says it all. It has a treatise on devils, demons, dragons and every major character race in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. Gettitgettitgettit!

I'm not very fond of the fan-submitted entries but the creatures created by Gary, Lew Puplisher and other well-known types make the FIEND FOLIO a handy book to keep 'round.

I'll take another controversial stance and say that DEITIES AND DEMIGODS is another "must have". There's a lot of good information therein about how clerics should interact with their gods, about characters getting godlike abilities (and they note that high stats as possessed by a god versus a mere mortal are two wholly different things...), and so forth. Seek one out (and the ones with the Cthulhu and Elric mythoi aren't as rare as some ebayers would have you believe, either).

As noted above, modules are a goldmine of new critters, magic items and classes. And don't forget back issues of DRAGON and DUNGEON magazines (I heartily recommend you seek out the "250 issues of" collection CD of the former).

Phew. That taps me out. Anybody else?

 

[eric mcloins]

3. If one only purchased three products for Planescape, what would they be?

1. Planescape (Boxed Set) - that's the basic stuff, gives you the basic chant on the planes.
2. Planes of Conflict (Boxed Set) - the best of the "Planes of" boxes.
3. Dead Gods/The Infinite Staircase - choose one of those great adventures.

4. Any good books on Hell?

Well, the Blood Wars boxed set is pretty good, but that's Planescape again.

5. Monster Manuals! What's in which books? Which ones were good?

Planescape monster compendium appendices I,II and III. Oops. Planescape again...