C&C: Why Different Challenge Bases?

[Delta]

I recently downloaded the Castles & Crusades Quick Start guide and read it. I actually like it a lot more than I thought I would! I feel like I could run a pretty slick campaign right out of the Quick Start guide -- it's pretty much everything I want right there, hewing very closely to original D&D.

One question for those in the know. Why on earth does it specify different challenge bases (DC's, basically) depending on the primary vs. secondary ability status of the performer? Wouldn't it be easier to set one single challenge base and say "you get +6 to the check if it's you're primary attribute"? This seems like really cluttered design to me, I can't figure out why they'd want to do it the two-different-challenge-bases way.

 

[Treebore]

I recently downloaded the Castles & Crusades Quick Start guide and read it. I actually like it a lot more than I thought I would! I feel like I could run a pretty slick campaign right out of the Quick Start guide -- it's pretty much everything I want right there, hewing very closely to original D&D.

One question for those in the know. Why on earth does it specify different challenge bases (DC's, basically) depending on the primary vs. secondary ability status of the performer? Wouldn't it be easier to set one single challenge base and say "you get +6 to the check if it's you're primary attribute"? This seems like really cluttered design to me, I can't figure out why they'd want to do it the two-different-challenge-bases way.

You can say it your way. Same thing. Just a different way of presenting it.

 

[Delta]

You can say it your way. Same thing. Just a different way of presenting it.

So do you actually double the number of numbers you record for every task, in every adventure?

 

[Treebore]

Well, to do it your way the base TN would always be 18. The CL would always be the CL. So if you determine something to be a CL 4, a trap, a glyph, whatever the "challenge" actually is, the final TN would be 22. If your rolling based on a Prime attribute they would get a +6 to that roll. Assuming a level 1 character, and a +0 attribute modifier, their total mods would be +7 if a Prime, or only +1 if not involving a PRime.

So obviously a CL 4 challenge to a 1st level PC is very, very deadly, especially if it involves non Primes.

In C&C you will never have a PC that is good at saving versus everything, in fact they will be substantially weaker versus a number of challenges.

So if they don't have a DEX Prime, and have to save against a Fireball, they know they are very likely in for a lot of pain, if not unconciousness or death.

In terms of saves, C&C is noticeably deadlier then any other version of D&D. Even more so (30% deadlier) when the save involves a non Prime.

You will never have situations like exist in 2E and earlier. No one in C&C will ever get to a point where they will make their save on a roll of a 2 or better. Nor will you get to a similar point like you do in 3E.

Saves will always be dangerous to PC's in C&C.

 

[S'mon]

So do you actually double the number of numbers you record for every task, in every adventure?

No, the adventure just lists the Challenge Level (0+) which is added to the Challenge Base. A good thing about this is that you can alter the CB easily, eg I make it 15, +6 for Primes, instead of 18, 12 for Primes.

 

[Delta]

No, the adventure just lists the Challenge Level (0+) which is added to the Challenge Base. A good thing about this is that you can alter the CB easily, eg I make it 15, +6 for Primes, instead of 18, 12 for Primes.

Ick. So you have to do additions with every listed CL before you even get to a TN (instead of just listing a fixed DC as in the d20 System). That alone might be enough to make me avoid the system. (sigh)

Thanks for the clarification, S'mon.

 

[scruffygrognard]

Ooops... double post. See below

 

[scruffygrognard]

Hey Delta,

I use a Challenge base of 15 for your average difficulty task. As such, when rolling a d20, you need to roll a 15 or better.

If using a Prime attribute you get a +5 to that roll. You also add your level to the your roll, unless you are doing something not associated with your class (ie. a fighter trying to pick a lock).

If the task is difficult, I assign a penalty to the die roll. Also, for saving throws, I penalize the roll based on the hit dice or level of the spellcaster or creature being saved against.

One you get used to it, it works well. The hardest part is getting used to adjudicating what penalty to assign to various tasks. BTW, if you use a Challenge Base of 15 for attribute checks, you could just port over DCs from d20.

 

[Treebore]

Ick. So you have to do additions with every listed CL before you even get to a TN (instead of just listing a fixed DC as in the d20 System). That alone might be enough to make me avoid the system. (sigh)

Thanks for the clarification, S'mon.

???

OK, if you find that more difficult than the tons of math in 3E, yeah, you better avoid it.

 

[Delta]

???

OK, if you find that more difficult than the tons of math in 3E, yeah, you better avoid it.

You got it, thanks for the input.