C&Ds for Online D&D 5E Character Generators

Ed Friedlander reports that WotC has asked him to remove his D&D character generators. Ed ran the generators at his site, Pathguy.com, including a D&D 5E character generator. His Pathfinder RPG character generator is still running. Thanks to Slayyne for the scoop (who also reports that at least one other site has also closed). [Update: while the actual request has not been shared, others have reported that these are very amicable requests].

You can see his closing note here.

"After almost two decades, Wizards of the Coast has asked me to remove my online character generators. I appreciate the many people who have written and thanked me for my work, and I hope you will continue to enjoy the hobby.

As a physician and gamer, I've supported and defended the hobby, and helped concerned families understand its value.

The "Dungeons and Dragons" phenomenon has encouraged young people to study other cultures. It is a game in which people work together to accomplish a meaningful goal. Characters even define themselves in terms of their good morals and their ethics. On one level, it simulates the spiritual warfare described in the Christian scriptures and in the Arthurian legends on which the game is based. I am proud that I was able to make a contribution.

My generator for Pathfinder will of course remain online. Click here for more information about this role-playing game.

May your dice come up 20s.

Ed Friedlander MD"

Back in November, the D&D Tools website suffered a similar fate, as have a couple of spellcard websites. While WotC appears to be largely easygoing as far as fan creations are concerned, they do take action when content from their products is copied or distributed.

Ed's character generator created characters by selecting a number of options, and output a character sheet similar to below. I'm not all that familiar with it, so I don't know what text, if any, it may have borrowed from the official rules.

As yet, there's no license (Open Gaming or otherwise) for D&D 5th Edition (although WotC does intend to do so), although a number of publishers have published books anyway using the older Open Gaming License for D&D 3E and 3.5.

What is interesting to hear is that some people who have received such requests describe them as very amicable. Toxic Rat says "Speaking from personal experience, I received a very nice email asking that I take down particular content owned by WotC. No threats, no warnings of legal action, just a request to honor their copyright." That's great to hear.

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[GMforPowergamers]

I suspect because Paizo sells most of their products direct to the customer, while WOTC sells most of their products through distributors and retail.

atleast in my area my 2 lgs (including my flgs) go through diamond disturber who also do all the major comics and toys for the local shops, and they do both Paizo and WotC

But you are not understanding this is an emotional response, completely unrelated to the legality of it. Now you say if we play by the rules we won't get into trouble, but what are the rules to play in this case? where do they draw the line? And this isn't as clear cut as you claim, the legality or not legality of pathguy's character creators lies on a grey area, yes they weren't following or using the OGL, but all the OGL is is a trade of certain fair use rights for the benefit of access to certain trademarks and not being demanded. As far as I know those character creators referenced mechanics (not subject to copyright) and indexed non-significant portions of a copyrighted text without reproducing trade dress (which as far as I know is fair use)

your right I can't understand an emotional response, at all in this case. I guess I just am not invested enough to get it. I consider it a major victory that these things can be handled by polite emails within a small community, and that if things are done by mistake people can just talk it out. I know other people (myself included) have gotten C&D and talked it out. If someone's response is to take down then it 'feels' to me like they relize they were in the wrong.

On the other hand I have a major emotional response to people trying to get away with breaking rules, and even if those rules I disagree with. That is why a link above is driving me nuts. the whole idea of "We were told no but we did it anyway" drives me up a wall. In real life I tell people not to smoke in sno smokeing area's and call attention when I see shop lifters, and yell at cars littering... I guess I am just a rules guy...

 

[Gecko85]

OMG!!!! why would someone take something that was legally requested taken down and put it up again... I hope who ever did it understands how wrong it is to not only break IP, but to flaunt it...

man, I feel like this entire hobby gets dirtier every day...I'm going to take a shower.

Not only that, but he didn't even have the good sense to *this time* include the required verbiage from the OGL. Not that I think it'd matter - looking at the replaced version, it includes a ton of stuff from both the PHB and the DMG. No way that info would be allowed to stand.

 

[MoonSong]

your right I can't understand an emotional response, at all in this case. I guess I just am not invested enough to get it. I consider it a major victory that these things can be handled by polite emails within a small community, and that if things are done by mistake people can just talk it out. I know other people (myself included) have gotten C&D and talked it out. If someone's response is to take down then it 'feels' to me like they relize they were in the wrong.

On the other hand I have a major emotional response to people trying to get away with breaking rules, and even if those rules I disagree with. That is why a link above is driving me nuts. the whole idea of "We were told no but we did it anyway" drives me up a wall. In real life I tell people not to smoke in sno smokeing area's and call attention when I see shop lifters, and yell at cars littering... I guess I am just a rules guy...

Well I have been witness of stories of people being screwed by the law -more so by the letter of the rules law- people close to me, and the horror stories in the media don't help at all. If I ever received a C&D form wizards I would panic, close down my wizards account erase my hard drive and donat emy books and magic cards to charity, all out of pure fear of being screwed by the system without ever stopping to consider if what I did was right or wrong. And a polite C&D is even scarier, from my cultural POV you can allow yourself to be polite as a display of power, if you know you can do as you wish with someone, being polite drives the point even further.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well I have been witness of stories of people being screwed by the law -more so by the letter of the rules law- people close to me, and the horror stories in the media don't help at all.

I always just assume those are few and far between, that for the most part the system works for most people...again I'm a rules guy.

If I ever received a C&D form wizards I would panic, close down my wizards account erase my hard drive and donat emy books and magic cards to charity, all out of pure fear of being screwed by the system without ever stopping to consider if what I did was right or wrong.

that is mighty extreme... when I got my C&D letter, I calmly wrote back to them and asked for clarification, and went on to explain what I was trying to do. For me it was the beginning of a discussion, not the end. I also very much never took anything down.

I feel kind of sorry for you to be honest, not having any faith in the system must be pretty scary.

And a polite C&D is even scarier, from my cultural POV you can allow yourself to be polite as a display of power, if you know you can do as you wish with someone, being polite drives the point even further.

wow... so you would prefer what? I mean would you prefer threats and accusations?

 

[Mistwell]

atleast in my area my 2 lgs (including my flgs) go through diamond disturber who also do all the major comics and toys for the local shops, and they do both Paizo and WotC

Many people buy RPG stuff direct from Paizo, often on subscription. Not all people of course, but a decent number.

Magic cards however are sold through distributors and retailers.

 

[MoonSong]

I always just assume those are few and far between, that for the most part the system works for most people...again I'm a rules guy.

It is not exactly lack of faith in the system, but lack of faith on people not being jerks who abuse or outright buyout the system to get whatever they want or to apply it so selectively they hurt the most vulnerable ones.

that is mighty extreme... when I got my C&D letter, I calmly wrote back to them and asked for clarification, and went on to explain what I was trying to do. For me it was the beginning of a discussion, not the end. I also very much never took anything down.

I don't think I could do that, I just can't shake the compulsion to stay safe and out of trouble, if not for myself, for the sake of my family and loved ones. I just have so much to lose and so little to gain on that I wouldn't gamble with it. That's why I feel for Pathguy, and i consider that taking the generators down is not so much an admission of guilt than just not wanting problems.

I feel kind of sorry for you to be honest, not having any faith in the system must be pretty scary./QUOTE]

No need to feel sorry, the world is a scary and confusing place. I prefer to accept that and move on with mt life hoping I never blink on the radar. I just cannot have blind faith on the system, more so because laws change, but what is truly right or wrong remains the same.

wow... so you would prefer what? I mean would you prefer threats and accusations?

I'd prefer never having to receive one.

 

[Dire Bare]

Well I have been witness of stories of people being screwed by the law -more so by the letter of the rules law- people close to me, and the horror stories in the media don't help at all. If I ever received a C&D form wizards I would panic, close down my wizards account erase my hard drive and donat emy books and magic cards to charity, all out of pure fear of being screwed by the system without ever stopping to consider if what I did was right or wrong. And a polite C&D is even scarier, from my cultural POV you can allow yourself to be polite as a display of power, if you know you can do as you wish with someone, being polite drives the point even further.

Wow.

If you got a polite C&D you'd burn your house down (figuratively)? That's a bit of an . . . overreaction.

The situation with Pathguy isn't exactly the "law screwing somebody over", far from it. There are good laws and bad laws, and sometimes it is morally justified to break the law to call attention to its unjustness (Rosa Parks). But hosting generators for a GAME!?!?! My sympathy began and ended before this debate even started.

Cold facts are, WotC owns D&D. It's their game, and they get to set the rules. And the rules they have set are eminently reasonable and fair. Also fairly easy to comply with. Pathguy might be a great guy, and his generators might have been pretty cool, but he did not take the time to follow WotC's rules when using their IP. So, when WotC notices, they politely ask him to remove his content that is violated their IP rights. Polite, reasonable, fair.

I have zero sympathy for Pathguy's "plight" or the whining of the constantly aggrieved anti-WotC lobby. The loss to the RPG community is barely noticeable, and the only fans WotC is alienating are the ones already alienated because they see underhandedness is every action WotC takes. No big loss there either.

And regarding the Pathfinder content . . . I doubt WotC's attention was drawn to Pathguy because of the Pathfinder content, but once the "eye of Sauron" (heh) fell upon his site they politely asked him to remove ALL content that violated their IP. Fairly simple and easy to understand, IMO. Pathfinder IS D&D 3E after all and is based on WotC's OGL license and IP.

 

[MoonSong]

If you got a polite C&D you'd burn your house down (figuratively)? That's a bit of an . . . overreaction.

I would do whatever it took for them stop giving me the bad kind of attention.

The situation with Pathguy isn't exactly the "law screwing somebody over", far from it. There are good laws and bad laws, and sometimes it is morally justified to break the law to call attention to its unjustness (Rosa Parks). But hosting generators for a GAME!?!?! My sympathy began and ended before this debate even started.

I say it is a pity, those generators had their uses. And I believe they would have stood a chance to be declared non-infringing if they ever were presented in court. But I sympathize with Pathguy, a few character generators are not worth gambling your honor, your integrity and your finances over. But that is the same reason many corporations can get away with a lot of stuff, nobody has the money to stand a process.

Cold facts are, WotC owns D&D. It's their game, and they get to set the rules. And the rules they have set are eminently reasonable and fair. Also fairly easy to comply with. Pathguy might be a great guy, and his generators might have been pretty cool, but he did not take the time to follow WotC's rules when using their IP. So, when WotC notices, they politely ask him to remove his content that is violated their IP rights. Polite, reasonable, fair.

WotC owns D&D IP, I've never discussed that. But IP ownership has limits under law, and WotC might want to impose as many limits as they want on their IP, they cannot go over the limits stated by law without a legally binding contract. There's this thing called fair-use, and game mechanics not being subject of copyright. I believe the generators fell right into that zone, other might not agree, but unless it ever reaches court we will never get a definite answer. SO it isn't as black and white not as clear cut as you think.

I have zero sympathy for Pathguy's "plight" or the whining of the constantly aggrieved anti-WotC lobby. The loss to the RPG community is barely noticeable, and the only fans WotC is alienating are the ones already alienated because they see underhandedness is every action WotC takes. No big loss there either.

I don't feel alienated as a consumer, but as a tinkering fan I feel insecure, I wish to share some of the settings I have cooked over the years, but until it is safe to do I won't.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I suspect because Paizo sells most of their products direct to the customer, while WOTC sells most of their products through distributors and retail.

Many people buy RPG stuff direct from Paizo, often on subscription. Not all people of course, but a decent number.

Magic cards however are sold through distributors and retailers.

opps, ok now I get what you mean... I thought you ment who was distributing to the retailers... yea WotC is a much more 'in bed' with the brick and morter stores... in fact my FLGS (Cave comics in Newtown CT shameless plug) the owner often tells me that for a few years mtg and pokemon card games are the only way he got to keep the doors open.

He is a HUGE WotC fan boy and cheerleader... and sometimes he rembemers one of those role playing games comes from them too

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't think I could do that, I just can't shake the compulsion to stay safe and out of trouble, if not for myself, for the sake of my family and loved ones. I just have so much to lose and so little to gain on that I wouldn't gamble with it. That's why I feel for Pathguy, and i consider that taking the generators down is not so much an admission of guilt than just not wanting problems.

I don't understand at all, if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to hide and have no problem... The system isn't fool proof, and I admit it isn't 100% accurate, sometimes it fails, but I can't imagine living in the scary world you do. I know I can tell a police officer where to stuff it if he wants to search my house with out a warrant, but I also know that if they are looking for a little kid and I have nothing to hide it is WAY better for that kid to let them in then make them waste time on a non lead...

if pathguy did nothing wrong (witch again is false, merric looked, and the site was not a legal site it did not have the proper stuff up) then he could have just said so. However since we know he was in the wrong (again it has been verified) then isn't this a victory, the ststem worked? The guy not doing things above board (Confirmed by merric) got asked to change how he does things....

No need to feel sorry, the world is a scary and confusing place.

that IS what I feel sorry for, this world is hard enough without imagining it being worse... I can't imagine how much harder it must be believing the way you do.

I prefer to accept that and move on with mt life hoping I never blink on the radar. I just cannot have blind faith on the system, more so because laws change, but what is truly right or wrong remains the same.

well yes, but we aren't talking about big world changing laws... we are talking about laws affecting our chosen hobby...

I'd prefer never having to receive one.

best way to do that is to always do everything above board (Witch AGAIN, pathguy did not)