[CA] Practiced Spellcaster, Caster level x prereq, and PrC's

[Silveras]

Good point.

"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used inititially to cast only the chosen spell."

So, if you choose a different spell each time you take the feat, what happens?

Taking the feat a second time could change the selected spell. You *still* only have 1 known spell. 1 spell slot, and +2 to Spellcraft.

Note the phrase "in general". One could argue that since these are different spells slots (because they can only be used for the specific spell) and since all other feats (tmk) that are picked for a different effect has that different effect stack (e.g Weapon Specialization), that this feat should work like all other feats that can allow for different effects.

Well, all of those feats also have a line that says "Special: You may select this feat multiple times, but its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, choose a different <whatever>."

The "in general" is not in the same sentence as the main rule, which says, "you can only take a feat multiple times and gain the benefits if it says so". In general ( i.e., for all non-special-case feats), there is no benefit to taking it twice.

 

[KarinsDad]

And even Precocious Apprentice allows you to cast one spell multiple times.

Just not on the same day.

Precisely.

Too bad my DM wouldn't allow me to take Precocious Apprentice for my psion so that I could do Wizard 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer 1. That would have been pretty cool. As is, I am more or less stuck with a normal psion with no PrC because the rest of the psionic prestige classes are really pretty lame (especially Overmind) with the exception of Elocater, but that PrC requires dedicating 3 normal feats (Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack) and that is just a little too pricey. Doable, but pricey.

Oh well.

 

[KarinsDad]

Taking the feat a second time could change the selected spell. You *still* only have 1 known spell. 1 spell slot, and +2 to Spellcraft.

Only if making two choices means you only really make one choice.

Well, all of those feats also have a line that says "Special: You may select this feat multiple times, but its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, choose a different <whatever>."

Many of those feats have also been in the game for years. It seems likely that a designer did not even consider the possibility for Precocious Apprentice.

But when you are talking the spending of two entire feats, I think most DMs are not going to care about 2 spell slots and 2 different spells.

There really is not much different between this feat and other feats that allow a choice (e.g. Weapon Specialization) except that this is a brand new feat that people have not asked WotC questions on as much.

I agree that your interpretation is the literal rule, but I also think that since all other "choice" feats do allow the feat to be taken multiple times, that this feat should not necessarily be an exception to that trend.

 

[Thanee]

So, you technically would have to take one level of an arcane caster and Precocious Apprentice twice at first level in order to quality for the PrC.

The CA designers already said, that the feat does not allow to fulfill PrC requirements, since it does not allow the character to cast 2nd level spells reliably (and they also mentioned, that it is a rather weak explanation, but the feat's intent is not to make PrC entry easier).

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

The CA designers already said, that the feat does not allow to fulfill PrC requirements, since it does not allow the character to cast 2nd level spells reliably (and they also mentioned, that it is a rather weak explanation, but the feat's intent is not to make PrC entry easier).

The biggest complaint I get from players of other FRPGs is that the designers of DND are always coming up with yet another "exception to the rules".

It really is difficult for most players and DMs to keep up with them all.

 

[Silveras]

There really is not much different between this feat and other feats that allow a choice (e.g. Weapon Specialization) except that this is a brand new feat that people have not asked WotC questions on as much.

I agree that your interpretation is the literal rule, but I also think that since all other "choice" feats do allow the feat to be taken multiple times, that this feat should not necessarily be an exception to that trend.

Please tell me you are kidding.

Do you *seriously* expect me to believe that they just forgot to add it? Sure, there is a remote chance that it is a mistake and it is supposed to be able to be taken more than once. However, that is much less likely than the case that they expect people to understand that by not saying you can take it more than once, it is limited to being taken once.

True, many, perhaps even all, of the other "choose something" feats allow more than one choice; they are also not limited to being taken only at 1st level, however.

No, I think the intenion is pretty clearly "Once only".

 

[KarinsDad]

Please tell me you are kidding.

Do you *seriously* expect me to believe that they just forgot to add it?

I suspect that it is possible that the thought never entered their minds.

Have you ever written a gaming product? I have. You spend man months on it, trying to handle every little contingency that someone might think of. But, there is often over a hundred pages to work on and a lot of little nuances. You do not really spend more than 10 minutes thinking on any one feat, there is too much other work to keep in sync.

Then, within 5 minutes of a products release, somebody comes up with a question that you never considered. And it goes from one question to dozens of questions, to maybe even hundreds of questions.

So yes, I think it is very conceivable that taking it twice was a thought not even on their radar at the time, especially since all other choice feats do allow you to take them multiple times. It's possible that they thought about it and figured that the normal feat rules handle it. Or, it's possible that they did not.

Every time there is an exception to the normal feat rules, they call it out. So if this is an exception to the normal "choice" feat rules (all of which have the multiple take special listed), they should have called it out precisely because rules lawyer DMs will rule the one way and "try to extrapolate from what you see presented there" DMs might rule another way. By being totally clear on something, it prevents ambiguity.

 

[WCrawford]

I suspect that it is possible that the thought never entered their minds.

Have you ever written a gaming product? I have. You spend man months on it, trying to handle every little contingency that someone might think of. But, there is often over a hundred pages to work on and a lot of little nuances. You do not really spend more than 10 minutes thinking on any one feat, there is too much other work to keep in sync.

Then, within 5 minutes of a products release, somebody comes up with a question that you never considered. And it goes from one question to dozens of questions, to maybe even hundreds of questions.

So yes, I think it is very conceivable that taking it twice was a thought not even on their radar at the time, especially since all other choice feats do allow you to take them multiple times. It's possible that they thought about it and figured that the normal feat rules handle it. Or, it's possible that they did not.

Every time there is an exception to the normal feat rules, they call it out. So if this is an exception to the normal "choice" feat rules (all of which have the multiple take special listed), they should have called it out precisely because rules lawyer DMs will rule the one way and "try to extrapolate from what you see presented there" DMs might rule another way. By being totally clear on something, it prevents ambiguity.

The only ambiguity is created by those who wish to use munchkin tactics and get something over on a DM.

So by your reasoning, they *MUST* include, "Special: This feat may only be selected once." on every feat. They have set a precedence, feats that may be selected multiple times are specifically stated as such, other cannot be selected multiple times, period.

 

[Thanee]

It really is difficult for most players and DMs to keep up with them all.

Don't tell me, it's a mess.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

...but in a good sort o' way.

Rule zero is always there, to lend a helping hand.