Campaign Types: Which are covered by the various editions?

[Wik]

So, in another thread, I started off with a simple question: Does 4e impose a limit on the scope of a non-"core" campaign that is larger that it has been? And, what are those limits? I argued it did, and some others agreed with me. Others did not.

Which is cool. But some people took it personally, and it turned into an EditionWarz thread. Which is weird, because I *like* 4e. Most of us arguing that 4e had some restrictions liked 4e.

I've had the topic on my head, though, and I think I want to broaden it a bit. Here's the big question:

What campaign styles/themes are covered by each edition? What does each edition do well? What can it cover if it is "tweaked" a bit? And what is really hard to do?

And, a somewhat related question:

Pick one of the following campaign types, and explain which edition would be best suited to run it Rules-As-Written, and explain why. Then, explain which edition you would enjoy using the most if you could tweak the system, and why.

The campaign types:

1) An Investigative, Non-combat game (Murder mysteries, CSI, X-Files, etc.)
2) Survival Horror (Zombies attack, Resident Evil)
3) A heroic army-based game (The first twenty minutes of Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan)
4) A "historical" fantasy (Mythic Greece, IMperial Rome, the Celts)
5) Slapstick comedy (Three Stooges, Piers Anthony)
6) Cthuloid Horror ("Oh god, it's eating my face from the cyclopean ruins beyond time!")
7) Gritty, survival-based game (Dark Sun, post-apocalyptic, Survivorman)
8) Epic, pot-based Fantasy (Lord of the Rings)

One big rule: If you're going to disagree with someone else, be polite about it, and if he disagrees, don't bring up your original points. Keep changing the debate. It shouldn't be a case of:

Guy A: "I like Dark Sun."
Guy B: "But deserts are too bland in the long run! You need a forest!"
Guy A: "But Deserts add to the game's overall theme."
Guy B: "Theme? Themes have to change. And deserts are too bland in the long run...!"

Let's not turn this into Edition Warz.

 

[Wik]

To answer my own question:

What campaign styles/themes are covered by each edition? What does each edition do well? What can it cover if it is "tweaked" a bit? And what is really hard to do?

BECMI: Great for exploration, "sandbox" style play, and crazy effects (magic pools, and the like)

If tweaked, it can handle quite a bit (realms play, for example). I imagine it'd have a hard time running a horror game.

1e: Similar, but a bit more dangerous, in my experience.

If tweaked, it can handle mcuh the same as BECMI, though with greater character variation. It did not handle "gritty" well, though.

2e: Lose some of the "sandbox", and add in a bit more character customization. Very malleable setting, good for "fringe" campaigns - it almost seemed to encourage them.

If tweaked - and this game, more than any other, seemed made for tweaking - it could handle almost every campaign concept I had come up with. That said, it didn't handle "Pirates!" very well, and lacked some of the fun in Dungeon Adventures.

3e: Dungeon Crawls, Epic fantasy, though it could do "gritty" pretty well, too (in a sense -it can be a very lethal system!).

It was pretty open if tweaked, though I find Exploration really hard to get "right" in 3e. It was pretty awful at large-scale combats.

4e: Heroic epics. Anything combat-based. Skill Challenges can create some interesting exploration dynamics.

If tweaked, it could do a very many things, but I think 4e is the worst edition to choose if you want to run a sandbox game (Due to the difficulty in balancing treasure and encounters to PC level) - and I beleive it doesn't do investigation well (unless you want to rely only on skill use, which I think would be boring from a player perspective).

Pick one of the following campaign types, and explain which edition would be best suited to run it Rules-As-Written, and explain why. Then, explain which edition you would enjoy using the most if you could tweak the system, and why.

GRITTY, SURVIVAL-BASED GAME

Rules-as-written, I'd go with 3e. There are numerous skills that can be used to model finding food and surviving with a lack of food (though no Endurance skill, unfortunately). The wide range of useful wilderness skills (Swim, Climb, Survival, Search, Nature, Handle Animal) means that no character can really cover all the bases. The swingy nature of critical hits in 3e can really add to the gritty feel - not to mention that with only -10 hit points before death, a character in the low positives could be outright killed in one hit, which is about as gritty as you can get.

The problems with the system, though, are in the spells. Magic can be used too often to override survival situations (Create Food and Water, for example), and unlike in other editions, Spells in 3e were pretty cheap to cast. In 1e, you had a very limited number of spells, after all.

Now, if I could tweak the system, I'd probably go with... I don't know. It's a tough question. 2e is my gut instinct, because I've run DARK SUN games using 2e, and it really caught the tone I liked - and 2e DARK SUN was already 2e using tweaked rules. Many of the things I like about 2e in a gritty setting are those that aren't changed - 2e had limited spells per day, for example. ON the downside, you'd need to rework hit points, because decent-level 2e characters were TOUGH to bring down. And the system lacked a decent set of survival-based skills that really felt "right".

I'd almost lean towards BECMI, with a tacked-on skills section. Or maybe 4e, with less powers (powers seem too "gonzo" for me, at times).

 

[MerricB]

1) An Investigative, Non-combat game (Murder mysteries, CSI, X-Files, etc.)

4th edition would be my first choice for such a campaign, thanks in no small amount to the more robust skill system and the introduction of skill challenges. Yes, they're not perfect yet, and they're somewhat system-independent, but they're a good starting point.

Tweaks to the system that might be made (and also with 3e) include more powers that interact with skills; there are some in 4e already, but also look to Star Wars Saga for inspiration: rerolls are good, as are possible bonuses.

A totally non-combat game doesn't really fit any edition of D&D well, of course.

2) Survival Horror (Zombies attack, Resident Evil)

Any edition of D&D, although I'd pay very close attention to the levels. For 4e, assuming that extended rest were allowed, the one tweak I'd make would be to limit healing surge recovery (or use Ari's optional rules for lingering wounds).

3) A heroic army-based game (The first twenty minutes of Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan)

Any edition of D&D, with a copy of Heroes of Battle clutched firmly in my hand.

4) A "historical" fantasy (Mythic Greece, IMperial Rome, the Celts)

Heh. Any edition of D&D, although limiting class selection to what is appropriate to the era.

5) Slapstick comedy (Three Stooges, Piers Anthony)

Any edition of D&D; this is all about the approach.

6) Cthuloid Horror ("Oh god, it's eating my face from the cyclopean ruins beyond time!")

Any edition of D&D; again, this is about the approach. All you need are threats that are way above the character levels and it works. Note cthulhu-ish elements are in adventures of every edition. The Star Warlock of 4e is one of the more cthulhu-inspired classes.

7) Gritty, survival-based game (Dark Sun, post-apocalyptic, Survivorman)

Any edition of D&D, but keeping close watch on the levels. In 4e, I might adjust healing surges (as with Survivor Horror), but may be not.

8) Epic, pot-based Fantasy (Lord of the Rings)

Any edition of D&D, not paying close watch on the levels.

Cheers!

 

[Charger28Alpha]

Hope it is ok to discuss 2 from your list.

2) Survival Horror (Zombies attack, Resident Evil)
6) Cthuloid Horror ("Oh god, it's eating my face from the cyclopean ruins beyond time!")

In the case of #2 the movie "Dawn of the Dead" comes to mind. I think any edition could pull it off and at any PC level. When facing hoards of "undead" management of individual and party resources is critical. As a fan of healing surges, I would enjoy playing this type of game with 4th Ed most. With healing surges the party does not really need a dedicated "medic" to manage the durability of PCs.

For #6 keeping with the George Romero theme, I think "Night of the Living Dead is a good example. Not for the mind destroying horror, but for the almost hopeless feeling the protagonists of both types of story face.. I do not believe any edition could do a great job with a NotLD type scenario. Unless the PCs were low level. The rapid increase in Hit Points and fighting (with magic or mundane means) ability of PCs as they level up makes it hard to put them in a position of hopelessness.

PS I agree with your assessment of a Dark Sun type game. Best way to address some of the spells you mentioned would be to go through the spell list for all classes you are going to use and remove or bump up the level of spells that would make life in the wastes of Athas too easy.

 

[Wik]

8) Epic, pot-based Fantasy (Lord of the Rings)

Ha. Now there's a typo. Woops.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Overall, I have always viewed D&D as more of a toolbox game as such I think it can cover all campaign types alright in the fantasy genre. As for specifics... Hmm, it sorta goes same with above. I think all can be covered to a degree it really depends on how that campaign type is employed that matters.

Well it is a favourite of mine so I'll do:

1) An Investigative, Non-combat game (Murder mysteries, CSI, X-Files, etc.)

Though, I should note that when I run these. There is combat, but it simply is to a far less degree. More just certain scenes to spice it up a bit.

System: 4th Edition D&D

The reason why are fairly simple. I find that with all the Classes having fairly equal cross coverage in Skills (each Class generally is able to specialize in some manner of non-combat skill) and the use of Skill Challenges it allows one to facilitate the game with a rulebase that is built for this kind of game.

In that, the players can play any array of classes not specific ones that are tailored for non-combat. They each can play a role in investigative matters. The Skills that exist cover wide enough area but without having to specialize to a degree that would hinder the campaign too much (a wider array of Skills can be utilized because their isn't so many that others get left in the dirt so to speak. This is also helped by Skill upgrading with levelling).

Skill Challenge wise, well to be blunt. We finally have a rule basis for non-combat situations which before wasn't present. I think that right there is a huge boon for such campaigns. I find too that with a simple system like Skill Challenges it opens itself up to more broad methods of use. Though this may be a personal thing, in that I prefer nice base systems cover a wide variety of things then lots of specific rulesets.

Enjoy the Most: 4th Edition D&D

It has proven to be my favourite edition so that lends lots of weight in this part. It is also as I personally found as stated above works for my favourite kind of campaign (can't wait for my next mystery game to get going).

As for tweaks, my biggest one would be probably to have concrete Skill Bonuses given to Powers. So things that shove a opponent for instance would give so many points to Intimidate. I do this on the fly as is, but be nice to see officially.

It is already a House Rule but since my above is as well might as well include it. A more concrete way to "divide" Powers. I view Powers as a set of actions that occur not one single event, as such I view Powers as dividable. What I mean by that is a Power that damages and has a side-effect could be divided so only one part would occur. Currently I just let it happen as such, but in a official system it be interesting to see what bonuses be gained by only performing that certain part.

I don't particular want that many "Non-Combat Powers" simply because for one you can only develop so much and without it taking away from Skills and the established rulebase for non-combat. It also I fear will lend itself to things like the Wizard dominating all roles essentially, in that Supernatural abilities can do more wild things then Martial classes.

I will also be blunt since it is definitely a biases and plays a roll in this. I am a fan of Martial over Supernatural Classes.

 

[Charger28Alpha]

Ha. Now there's a typo. Woops.

I thought you were tying it into #5 as presented by the Opium influenced modules Dungeonland and The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Ha. Now there's a typo. Woops.

Well... We do know the Hobbits liked their pipes

Edit: A more serious part. I dunno how "legit" this is for a campaign style. I get what your saying, but I think the two parts divided can fit into others as well. Plot based is based on well does this follow some method of a plot-line. To use the style I picked a investigation while more of a loose plot still has one (there is afterall something to be uncovered and this leads into a plot).

Epic, well that is dependent on the scope of the game. So any number of styles could be Epic.

 

[Thasmodious]

What campaign styles/themes are covered by each edition? What does each edition do well? What can it cover if it is "tweaked" a bit? And what is really hard to do?

D&D is good at D&D, everything else requires tweaking.

1) An Investigative, Non-combat game (Murder mysteries, CSI, X-Files, etc.)

4e, easily. Skill challenges are an excellent fit for an investigation.

2) Survival Horror (Zombies attack, Resident Evil)

4e again. Minions let you throw overwhelming numbers at the besieged PCs and the undead are varied and interesting, especially when you include Open Grave. Skill challenges provide a good framework for other aspects of the genre.

3) A heroic army-based game (The first twenty minutes of Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan)

Again 4e. The first session of my campaign was the first 20 minutes of Gladiator, plus an army of devils. It was a blast, minions let the PCs do a load of killin at 1st level, the flattened power scale allows you to have strong foes that don't instantly overwhelm the PCs (they survived a couple rounds with a bone devil).

4) A "historical" fantasy (Mythic Greece, IMperial Rome, the Celts)

4e. The melee classes are the best they've ever been, Martial Power provides lots of options to keep melee only interesting. If you add in wizards and priests and want a mythological "historical" game, I would say 1e.

5) Slapstick comedy (Three Stooges, Piers Anthony)

Hmm. Not sure any edition of D&D would do this well. I imagine any of them could be tweaked since the humor won't come from the rules. Maybe 4e, as the actual application of hit points is as abstract as the presentation of them has always claimed. Surges would make a good mechanic to overcome Stooge Violence.

6) Cthuloid Horror ("Oh god, it's eating my face from the cyclopean ruins beyond time!")

No edition does by the book Lovecraft well, since D&D is combat focused and its a major part of the rules in every edition. It would be a complete waste of the system to try this and not just use any of the decent to excellent Cthulhu games that are out there. To do a fantasy version of Cthulhu-type horror, I would say 4e. Insanity could be modeled on disease, the Far Realm and the numerous aberrations supply the creatures, warlocks and rituals add a lot of necessary flavor...

7) Gritty, survival-based game (Dark Sun, post-apocalyptic, Survivorman)

2e. I think the game is easy to strip down in a gritty fashion with some tweaking, resource management works well in the system. 4e would be a close second and what I would actually use if this genre still interested me (I ran a gritty, low magic survival game for years in 2e and Runequest).

8) Epic, pot-based Fantasy (Lord of the Rings)

Any, 4e being my preference.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

I like how your first post reads like a high school English essay prompt. I'm not kidding here; threads could seriously learn a thing or two from high school English classes.

1) An Investigative, Non-combat game (Murder mysteries, CSI, X-Files, etc.)

As I said in the previous thread in a vain attempt to address the original topic: 3.5 Eberron. An investigative game isn't necessarily better suited to 3rd edition, but it's a style of game that Eberron was explicitly designed to accommodate, and Eberron was so specifically tailored for the 3rd edition system that I have a hard time believing that WOTC will be able to really capture it fully in a 4e campaign setting.

I'm also going to repeat myself that Dungeon #133 had "Chimes at Midnight", which is one of the best short modules I've ever had the fortune to play, and is an Eberron-specific investigative story arc. I actually played it in a 3rd edition investigative game, and I can only partially attribute the incredible success of that campaign to the DM and players.

Dark Heresy also does this very well, with a heaping dose of survival-horror laid on top for good measure.

2) Survival Horror (Zombies attack, Resident Evil)

Ehhh... depends on what you want your survival:horror ratio to be. I'm inclined to say 4e, simply because survival-horror usually involves a functionally infinite number of opponents, and 4e handles crowds quite well. Heroes of Horror had some interesting concepts in it, and those rules were integrated into Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which I myself plan to run in 4th edition in the nearish future.

The Shadowfell plane in 4e also seems to be very carefully designed to accommodate horror games in the general vein of the Ravenloft campaign setting material, so that may also be a strong point, depending again on your flavor of survival-horror.

3) A heroic army-based game (The first twenty minutes of Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan)

4th edition handles the heroic bit quite well and the army bit fairly well; Exalted handles both extremely well. A party of Dragon-Blooded makes for a fantastic heroic army game.

4) A "historical" fantasy (Mythic Greece, Imperial Rome, the Celts)

If you're playing with a bunch of history buffs, GURPS is probably your best bet here, since they've released supplements for exactly these kinds of campaigns, and GURPS's detail-oriented approach is probably a good fit for anybody who's a stickler for historical accuracy.

6) Cthuloid Horror ("Oh god, it's eating my face from the cyclopean ruins beyond time!")

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Call of Cthulhu. I think you could probably do a good job of it with d20 Modern, but it might not be wise to pay too much attention to the d20 Call of Cthulhu book.

7) Gritty, survival-based game (Dark Sun, post-apocalyptic, Survivorman)

As far as straight-up survival goes, Deadlands: Hell On Earth was pretty much the best post-apocalyptic game I've ever seen.

8) Epic, pot-based Fantasy (Lord of the Rings)

I'm not even sure what this means.

EDIT: I just realized you may have intended your questions to only span Dungeons and Dragons systems. If that's the case... then I stick to my answers. Just because D&D is a great game doesn't mean it's the best system for any kind of campaign, and nothing makes me beat my head against the wall more than when I have a conversation that goes like this:

"I'm starting a D&D campaign, but I want it to have <such and such flavor that D&D doesn't handle well>, so I'm doing <such and such major changes to the rules> to compensate."
"Well, you know, you could just use <non-D&D system>, it's very robust and designed for exactly that kind of game."
"Oh, no, I want to run a D&D game."

Home brewed material is all well and good, but there is a point at which it is disingenuous to say that you are playing Dungeons and Dragons.

...If you want to take issue with my position on that matter, please split it into another thread. I'd hate to see poor Wik lose two consecutive threads on the same subject to derailment.