Can a Natural Lycanthrope be afflicted by the Curse of another?

[RuminDange]

Interesting question came in the course of game recently as one character is a natural lycanthrope (leopard) and was attacked by a wererat.

Since Curse of Lycanthropy states "Any humanoid or giant hit by a wererat’s bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy." it was questioned if this character would possibly face becoming an afflicted wererat since he is a humaniod.
Most of the sample lycanthropes in the MM show the type as Humaniod (Human, Shapechanger) which could mean the character is subjected to the curse of another lycanthrope as odd as that can be.

So what do you think or how would you rule it as DM?

Thanks,
RD

 

[Sekhmet]

No. Creatures which naturally secrete diseases, venoms, or poisons are immune to their own disease, venom, or poison.
Since all lycanthropy is the disease "Curse of Lycanthropy", all lycanthropes are immune to the diseases produced by lycanthropes.

 

[anest1s]

I would be ok with it. Good idea too.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Oh, I hope it does. That would be awesome.

I think by RAW, you can rule either way. Either they already have the disease, so you can't contract it again, or the different versions are different enough that you can contract both.

 

[Greenfield]

My answer would be "No", but for a different reason. I don't think you can acquire the same template more than once. Note that that's my gut talking, not the rules.

The rules say that in theory there's no limit to the number of templates you can add, though some may make someone ineligible for others.

One could argue that, while the Lycanthrope template doesn't change the creature's type, it does add the Shapechanger subtype, thus making them ineligible to acquire it again. (It can only be acquired by Humanoids and Giants). It's a this excuse, but it feels right.

 

[RuminDange]

No. Creatures which naturally secrete diseases, venoms, or poisons are immune to their own disease, venom, or poison.
Since all lycanthropy is the disease "Curse of Lycanthropy", all lycanthropes are immune to the diseases produced by lycanthropes.

Agree on the basic immunity a creature would have to any diseases or poisons it naturally has; however, I have always looked at Lycanthropy not as a disease but as a curse that acts / spreads like a disease since it is only contracted via the bite. I base this off the way you "cure" it.
My reasoning for that is as follows:
Within the first hour you can consume a poison to get a new save to shake off the affliction. What other disease is cured that way?
A remove disease or heal by 12th level cleric or higher within 3 days of the initial attack can cure the affliction, this is the only time removing the Curse of Lycanthropy mirrors a disease.
After that the only way to remove the affliction is only during the 3 days of the full moon and only by Remove Curse or Break Enchantment. Again not acting like a disease to me. So is it a disease or a curse?

RD

 

[RuminDange]

I would be ok with it. Good idea too.

Oh, I hope it does. That would be awesome.

See I thought it would be great way to really mess with the natural lycanthrope PC.

I think by RAW, you can rule either way. Either they already have the disease, so you can't contract it again, or the different versions are different enough that you can contract both.

Agreed, by RAW it really could go either way. But then about the whole disease thing, I think it is more a curse. (See previous post. )
However, even if it was a disease, I could see ruling that the disease from a wererat is different then the disease of a wereleopard, and therefore contactable by other.

RD

 

[RuminDange]

My answer would be "No", but for a different reason. I don't think you can acquire the same template more than once. Note that that's my gut talking, not the rules.

The rules say that in theory there's no limit to the number of templates you can add, though some may make someone ineligible for others.

One could argue that, while the Lycanthrope template doesn't change the creature's type, it does add the Shapechanger subtype, thus making them ineligible to acquire it again. (It can only be acquired by Humanoids and Giants). It's a this excuse, but it feels right.

The whole adding the same template and/or already possessing the shapechanger subtype is what really made me think initially that a natural lycanthrope couldn't become afflicted by another different type lycanthrope. But then I considered the question, is the Natural Lycanthrope template really the same as the Afflicted Lycanthrope templete? (+3 vs +2, No ability to pass on the curse, and leopard vs dire rat difference sets them apart.)

RD

 

[RuminDange]

I just thought of something else in disease vs curse argument.

Correct me if I am wrong, but with a disease, the character gets the initial save to ward off the disease and on a failure they have contracted it.
Then after some incubation period another save is given and on failure the character suffers an effect and this continues each day until either two successful saves in a row are made or the character dies, etc.
A curse on the other hand is normally one save, you withstand it or you are cursed. This is another aspect of the Curse of Lycanthropy that goes against it being a disease.
Where is the incubation period, the daily saves, and the daily damage?

I guess the incubation period is the month until the next full month, but there is no way for the character to fight off this "disease" that follows the normal rules.

I could agree calling the curse a disease if over the three days after the initial bite the character made daily saves and took massive attribute damage (intelligence or wisdom perhaps) until they either saved twice in a row or reached like 2 in the attribute. If they reach 2 then the disease has run its course and they are now afflicted with a curse that has a certain removal method (3 days of the full moon, remove curse/break enchantment).
That of course brings it back to the initial question can the curse of one lycanthrope affect another lycanthrope? Either it can because it is really a curse or it can't because at initial delivery the "curse" acts like a disease and since they both have this "disease/curse" bestowing bite they are immune to it from another lycanthrope no matter any differences they might have.

RD

 

[Greenfield]

I think it falls under that category of "magical diseases". I'd be tempted to label it a curse as well, except that Remove Curse doesn't touch it.

As a magical disease it doesn't have to follow the normal rules for disease. You get your initial Save and that's it. Wolfsbane can treat it, if taken quickly enough, which I suppose might be considered as the specific detail a Heal check would supply.