Can a swarm be grabbed?

[Reaper Steve]

The MM glossary entry I found doesn't prevent a swarm from being grabbed, but man, I just can't see how a swarm could be grabbed and held in place. I ruled 'no' in the game last night and no one objected, but this seems like something that would have a clear rule. Anyone know of one?
Thanks!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would tend to say no, but I have no kind of rule support. Maybe an errata could just make that no status effect can be applied by a ranged or melee attack.

(It already cannot be moved by single target effects)

 

[Stumblewyk]

It does seem counter-intuitive to be able to grab a swarm. Using that same argument, how would one make a swarm go prone? How would you slow a swarm (you could target the swarm with a slowing power, but how would you slow EVERY member of a swarm?)

I don't know of any particular rule that says swarms are not subject to the same status effects that a non-swarm creature is. I think when you start to look at it on a granular level, the "realism" breaks down, but you have to keep them subject to the same restrictions and rules that any other "creature" is.

As UngeheuerLich said above, they can't be pulled, pushed, or slid by melee or ranged attacks (bursts and blasts are still A-OK, though). If you want to extend that to grabbed, or any other effect, then do it. It's your game.

 

[Markn]

The game enourages you to find a suitable explanation for the effect. So, grabbed, could be described as encouraging the swarm to (effectively) enter your square using food (or bait) for example.

 

[fuzzlewump]

You could hand-wave the use of a net I guess. The character pulls out the net when they grab the swarm and put it away as free action when the condition ends. And... it's big enough to work and stuff.

 

[Zaran]

Grapple Fighter: I grab the swarm and break it's neck! 70pts of damage!

GM: That's great but damage is halved because it takes extra time to find the insect necks.

Of course this doesn't bother me as much as a power that breaks someone's neck using the W of the weapon you are holding.

 

[Kobold Boots]

The game enourages you to find a suitable explanation for the effect. So, grabbed, could be described as encouraging the swarm to (effectively) enter your square using food (or bait) for example.

My own ruling would be:

- There's no rule that says it can't be grabbed. Therefore it can be.
- As a player you have to have a piece of equipment, spell, ritual or ability that can fit the task at hand in order to do it.

Ex: Flying swarm over a 20x20 area. Do you have a big insect net? Do you have the ability to turn the atmosphere from a 20x20 area into Jello such that the objects float or are otherwise immobilized?

Just because the rules say you can do something doesn't mean you should be able to do it. Somewhere along the line this question falls into the campaign's tolerance for physical realism and that's different from DM to DM.

.. looks up Air to Jello transmutation.. that just sounded cool.. especially if it's found to be flammable Jello

 

[Ryujin]

Grabbing? Throw a blanket over it. Prone? Blown onto their collective backs, scattered, or similar effects. Like Markn said, it's up to you to come up with a suitable description. In our group if someone is trying to do something that doesn't sound possible fromt he general description, then it's up to the player to say how it's done. No description; no effect.

 

[Robtheman]

Disallowing Grabbed, Slow or Prone is pretty brutal when fighting a swarm. The entire goal is to hit it with area or burst effects, from range if possible. Nothing better than a Prone or Slow effect, or having the Fighter take it down.

Plausible descriptions for grabbed.
Grabbed: The huge fighter slams his body down on the pile of crawling skeletal hands; You throw your cloak down on the mass of scarabs; You slam a ax down on the pile of lizards then use your shield to press them into the ground

This is a situation that really tests the DMs emotive abilities - and thats a good thing! I love the opportunity to explain the inexplicable. The players love to hear exactly how a axe could flatten a swarm of lizards to a prone position, for example.

Last night a weapon attack with an axe had the added effect of knocking the target(s) prone. In this case the attack was made with the flat edge of the double axe and the creatures were smashed into the earth. It was enough that the swarm of the creatures had to work to get out of the muck. The creatures mindset is to stay with the group. While some of the swarming creatures were not technically prone they waited for the rest or helped them get free instead of striking out on their own.

If nothing makes sense that would hit the whole swarm, another option would be splitting the swarm in two, with half hp's and half damage.

This feels like a super fun result. The players' thinking goes like: "awesome job fighter now we can get clear; Oh crap there's more of them - screw you GM; Oh phew it hits less hard, i guess that was a good idea after all. Do that to the other one!"

There you have it, for what it's worth.

 

[jrowland]

There is a tendency to take much of the 4E rules and read it as literal. It is explicitly abstract.

In 4E, the "Grab" action, upon a successful "hit" imposes the "immobilized" condition.

The real question is "Can you immobilize a Swarm?". I think that is a definite yes, both by RAW and RAI. Can you then "Move a Grabbed Swarm?", this may be thornier, and where people have mentioned having a net or some such handy. I think you don't such extras. To require it runs the risk of the 10 foot pole problem of earlier editions (google it if you don't know). A foot is all you need (throw a bucketful of dice on the floor and move them with your foot - yup, that swarm can be moved) or a cloak for those pesky gnats, but even your flailing hands can do it.

I think it is well within the DMs right to impose a -2 penalty on such grab attempts (Invoking the DMs friend). I also think you should remeber that you don't have to move every creature in a swarm, just a significant portion of them. In many ways, a swarms aura is just more of the swarm, but not so many of them that you can target or prevent you from moving through.

The same sort of thinking can be applied to Prone and other conditions. In fact, my 4E claim to fame in our gaming group is the time I knocked a Black Dragon prone over a 1000 foot cliff (crashing, dmg 47). It failed its save every round to stop from falling and fell to its death! We described the prone effect as being a result of its wings getting blown out of position such that it fell. I was hoping to buy us a round or two of healing before it righted itself and came back...imagine my surprise as the DM kept rolling single digit save rolls all the way down.