Can anyone point me to an excellent, visual, article on dungeon design? (or the lost images of a certain enworld thread xD)

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
It was for the 2008 one page dungeon contest, so was designed to fit a concisely written a limited linear storyline. I'm not much into sandbox style play and that is reflected in most of my dungeons I guess. The limited space available for that contest is map and adventure on a single side of an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper, fonts no smaller than 8 point. So there isn't a lot of room for nuance and exploration, and why this map is so linear! ;)
 
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Guest 6801328

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I don't think I agree with the premise of the old thread the OP linked to, that non-linearity is, by definition, a desirable quality in dungeon design. The most obvious counter-evidence is that some of the dungeons that the author determines are "bad design" are legendary favorites. Clearly people had a good time playing them.

Many contributors to forums like these are rabid anti-railroaders, but I think for the vast, vast majority of players (the sort who don't hang out on forums) they don't mind at all being railroaded. Exploring dead-ends and false options is fun, then you find the "right" path and move on.

It's been working for 40 years.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
I don't think I agree with the premise of the old thread the OP linked to, that non-linearity is, by definition, a desirable quality in dungeon design. The most obvious counter-evidence is that some of the dungeons that the author determines are "bad design" are legendary favorites. Clearly people had a good time playing them.
I agree that there are players who don't mind being railroaded. A few may even prefer it. It's a great way to play if you're in the mood for a beer & pretzl game and you don't want to exercise your brain. Over a hundred million people enjoy playing "Candy Crush", surely they can't all be wrong. However, why bother playing an RPG if you could just as well play "Candy Crush"?

I recall an interesting ENWorld article about the different kinds of 'fun'. A quick search turns up an article by AngryGM about the same topic.

Let's examine these kinds of fun:
#1 Sensory Pleasure: can be had whether it's a linear dungeon or not.
#2 Fantasy: unaffected by a railroad, unless it's overdone and too heavy-handed; then it might break the illusion.
#3 Narrative: unless a players wants to tell her own story, a railroad may be even better suited for this.
#4 Challenge: a gauntlet-style dungeon may appeal to a player looking mostly for a challenge, but there are other kinds of challenges that require a more sophisticated dungeon design; e.g. personally I enjoy trying to achieve my goals as efficiently as possible, and that means looking for and exploiting shortcuts.
#5 Fellowship: probably the second-most important kind of fun for a 'beer & pretzl' player; matters of dungeon layout are clearly irrelevant for this.
#6 Discovery: this is probably the kind of fun that is completely negated by railroady adventure design.
#7 Expression: may be negatively affected by railroading (similar to #2, depending on how restrictive the DM is).
#8 Submission: the kind of fun railroad-fans are mostly looking for. Non-linear dungeons would actually be bad for this kind of fun!

So, apparently railroading isn't in such a bad place after all:
There's almost exactly as many kinds of fun served well by rail-roading than by non-linear dungeon (or adventure) design!
It's been working for 40 years.
Well, humans have been using hand axes for over a million years. I wonder why anyone ever felt they needed to improve on the initial design? ;)

Looking at the different kinds of fun has helped me to realize why I enjoy roleplaying games so much: Ideally they provide me with almost all the different kinds of fun. The one kind of fun I personally don't look for in an RPG is #8. For that I prefer 'Candy Crush' ;)
 


G

Guest 6801328

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I agree that there are players who don't mind being railroaded. A few may even prefer it. It's a great way to play if you're in the mood for a beer & pretzl game and you don't want to exercise your brain. Over a hundred million people enjoy playing "Candy Crush", surely they can't all be wrong. However, why bother playing an RPG if you could just as well play "Candy Crush"?

The thing is, I'm not sure a linear dungeon counts as "being railroaded". Let's say there are 17 different routes you can take through the dungeon to reach the dragon at the end. Aren't you still being directed to reach the dragon? So it's still a railroad, right?

I don't think so. A railroad, in my opinion, is the DM trying to prevent players from making choices they want to make. (If you force them to fight the dragon, even though they are doing a good job avoiding such a thing, that might start counting as a railroad.)

Furthermore, each time you add an alternate path in a dungeon it becomes more difficult to make all the parts of the dungeon work together, and you can easily end up with a less-interesting dungeon. E.g., what happens if the heroes skip Room A, where the key is:
- They don't actually need the key
- They can always go back and look for it later...in which case the point of the non-linearity kind of evaporates.
 

The thing is, I'm not sure a linear dungeon counts as "being railroaded". Let's say there are 17 different routes you can take through the dungeon to reach the dragon at the end. Aren't you still being directed to reach the dragon? So it's still a railroad, right?

Indeed, a linear dungeon is just that: a linear dungeon. And there's nothing wrong with that. I often point out that sometimes leaving out redundant rooms in your dungeons can make for better dungeon design.

When we talk about rail roading, we're talking about the elimination of choice to the detriment of the game through the way the game is run. You could run a linear dungeon in a railroady way, but you could also run any other dungeon in a railroady way.

And aren't many dungeons with optional paths really just linear dungeons in disguise?

I made a dungeon a while ago, of a network of catacombs, leading to a boss room. There were about 3 different paths the players could take, all leading to the final room. Would that be considered a linear dungeon? Maybe. The ending room sure was fixed (although the players were under no obligation to finish the dungeon), but there were several ways to reach that final room.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
The thing is, I'm not sure a linear dungeon counts as "being railroaded". Let's say there are 17 different routes you can take through the dungeon to reach the dragon at the end. Aren't you still being directed to reach the dragon? So it's still a railroad, right?
Now you disappoint me. Apparently 'railroad' is a loaded term and you appear to have a more restrictive view of it than I do.
Regarding your example: Who says that the 17 different routes all lead to a dragon 'at the end'? I'm not even sure what 'at the end' is supposed to mean. In a non-linear dungeon layout there is no 'end'.
One of these 17 entrances might lead directly to the dragon. In fact I consider that highly likely. The dragon needs a way to quickly get in and out of its lair, right?
And who says that the dungeon needs to be static? Shouldn't the monsters roam around in it?

I agree in as much as that it isn't as important how many different routes there are, as the question whether these routes result in the players being able to make meaningful choices. E.g. many official modules contain a 'maze' of some sort. I hate that, because a 'maze' usually doesn't offer any meaningful choices. Do you go left or right? That's a non-decision.
I don't think so. A railroad, in my opinion, is the DM trying to prevent players from making choices they want to make. (If you force them to fight the dragon, even though they are doing a good job avoiding such a thing, that might start counting as a railroad.)
No one is disputing that. But this is a thread about dungeon design, right?
Getting back to the origin of the term 'railroading': People started to call this 'technique' that way because they felt the adventure was on a single-lane track. If your dungeon layout represents a single lane from the entrance to the dragon's lair, how would you call it?
Now, what happens when the party reaches the dragon's lair (does it simply always attack them, or could it be bargained with, etc.) is a completely different question and not the topic of this thread.
Furthermore, each time you add an alternate path in a dungeon it becomes more difficult to make all the parts of the dungeon work together, and you can easily end up with a less-interesting dungeon. E.g., what happens if the heroes skip Room A, where the key is:
- They don't actually need the key
- They can always go back and look for it later...in which case the point of the non-linearity kind of evaporates.
So because it's 'more difficult' you should avoid non-linear dungeons? Come on! I think you can do better than that!

Did you even look at the articles about dungeon design? It's perfectly fine to have 'choke points'. If you have a dungeon with three sub-sections, each of them can still be non-linear.

It's a different question whether you should include a door that cannot be opened or circumvented by any other means than a single unique key that you have hidden in one of the rooms. Personally, I'd try to avoid that. I'd also like to note that even in a completely linear dungeon the players could potentially miss the key.

And regarding the 'They can always go back and look for it later' part: this isn't actually a given. Complications could arise to make this difficult or even impossible. Did I already mention monsters that move about? If the key leads to an area that even just one of the inhabitants sometimes needs to or wants to enter, they might pick up the key (or have a duplicate).

Non-linearity doesn't 'evaporate' just because reaching one room requires something that can only be found in one particular other room. It's already an improvement over a linear design if they can skip one or more rooms at all. And non-linearity is the most fun when a combat or chase scene happens that involves moving around the dungeon. Even if it's a combat that 'cannot be avoided' it will become a lot more interesting if it takes place in an interesting environment. And unlike a set-piece combat in a carefully designed room, the players actually have some agency in deciding where they want to take the fight.

Finally, it's quite clearly a fallacy to consider something a railroad just because at some points all of the different branches lead to a single concluding scene. If that was the case, a campaign module like 'Masks of Nyarlathotep', which is widely considered as something like the holy grail of sandbox design would also be a railroad because in the end the investigators either stop Nyarlathotep or the world's end has come. It's all about the journey to get there, and it's unlikely that any two roleplaying groups will solve it entirely in the same way.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It was for the 2008 one page dungeon contest, so was designed to fit a concisely written a limited linear storyline. I'm not much into sandbox style play and that is reflected in most of my dungeons I guess. The limited space available for that contest is map and adventure on a single side of an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper, fonts no smaller than 8 point. So there isn't a lot of room for nuance and exploration, and why this map is so linear! ;)
Fair enough. :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I don't think I agree with the premise of the old thread the OP linked to, that non-linearity is, by definition, a desirable quality in dungeon design. The most obvious counter-evidence is that some of the dungeons that the author determines are "bad design" are legendary favorites. Clearly people had a good time playing them.
Given the number of old-school modules I'm familiar with, he did an impressive job of hitting several I don't know well at all. :) That said:

Sunless Citadel: I played through this and remember it being OK, but I wasn't paying much attention to the design as I was too busy trying to learn 3e.

Forge of Fury: I've both played through this and DMed it and found its design excellent each time (though when I DMed it I made the upper passage that goes off the map into a second entrance, which I think helped a bit).

Keep on the Borderlands: the author likes this one for the same reasons I do.

G2 Glacial Rift: this is another good one IME.

The rest of those he mentions I'm not too familiar with. I've played through Hommlet and have bad memories of it, but that might just be due to the ass-whuppin' that adventure laid on us. :)

Many contributors to forums like these are rabid anti-railroaders, but I think for the vast, vast majority of players (the sort who don't hang out on forums) they don't mind at all being railroaded. Exploring dead-ends and false options is fun, then you find the "right" path and move on.

It's been working for 40 years.
While players might not mind being railroaded (and I agree: many don't mind it, at least to some extent) it's probably still better if the DM finds some well-designed modules to run...if for no other reason than they're more fun for the DM! :)

I've run lots of linear adventures and nearly every time come away thinking that from my DM's side the whole thing was just too predictable; leaving me with little interest in ever running them again. I've also run lots of non-linear adventures, most of which I'd gladly run again. And over the years I've learned to let this inform my own dungeon designing, though Jacquays I most certainly ain't. :)

Lanefan
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
I did create another very linear map for the 2014 One Page Dungeon Contest and was picked for a runner up award, though I knew I wouldn't win. One of the judges stated on their blog that they only wanted to see fantasy based adventurers and never pick a sci-fi adventure as a winner - it takes all three judges to pick the same winner for one to win the top prize. I took that judge's preference as a challenge and wrote a fun little one-shot module as sci-fi space horror. I was surprised that her bias didn't knock me of the standings altogether.

I eventually, added more pages, converting it from game system agnostic (OPDC rules requirement) to Starfinder RPG, and released it as a free module at DTRPG if want to check it out - but remember it was linear too for the same reasons, and though it's bigger now, I didn't change the premise.

While my published Curse of the Golden Spear trilogy (for my Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror PFRPG) starts a bit linear - the PCs are escorting a merchant to delivery a gift to a powerful lord on some exotic land they take by boat, so it's getting from point A to point B. But the second and third modules start having ramifications if they do or don't do things, and the adventures are designed so the players could choose a different path and that's okay. Some things will get missed, but somethings you pick up and move to where the PCs are. Situations come up that create new incentives to do this and that like removing a seriously detrimental curse the party picks up, and the final goal is to get the hell out this insane exotic land. They have multiple options on how to do it. So a linear adventure can be written in such a way that it doesn't feel linear. It's only a railroad, if the players can see the tracks - so just hide it well, they'll never know.
 
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