Can charisma be something more than just dump stat?

[the Jester]

One approach might be to allow characters to make Charisma-based attacks to inflict penalties on opponents ("I intimidate the kobold for -2 to attacks and damage until the end of the encounter!") If these were Cha vs. Cha attacks, and if they had prerequisite Charisma scores, you could make Cha very worthwhile.

 

[Diamond Cross]

In DDO you can use some of your Charisma based skills to affect monsters you fight. In some cases, taunting can cause the monster to change opponents.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I could picture a feat that gives you a Taunting power. You make a Charisma vs Will attack, and if you hit, the creature attacks you. If you fail, you mark them (so they're at -2 if they don't attack you, but you're not controlling the action).

One advantage of a feat: it could be used for multiple classes, like a charismatic fighter, a warlord, a warrior cleric, a barbarian, or even a ranger-based (or new class) "swashbuckler".

I don't know if any core rule feats give powers, but I just bought Dark Sun and there's a whole chain of arena-based weapon-specific feats that let you trade out a power for a weapon-based power.

But I wouldn't agree with a power that just forces an opponent to attack; one of the disadvantages of an MMO is the AI. In order to get a monster to attack "intelligently", aggro mechanics were developed, but those are exploitable and are anyway no substitute for a DM's judgement.

 

[NichG]

In mid to high level 3.5ed D&D, Charisma is actually overpowered as a stat. No other stat can be used as a modifier for as many things as Charisma can with the right feat and class choices:

Divine Grace, Oriental Adventures Shaman class ability, Ruin Delver's Fortune: Charisma to all saves

Various spells (Sirine's Grace, etc) and templates (anything incorporeal, various undead), as well as the Battledancer base class (Dragon Compendium) and the Ascetic Mage Monk/Sorceror path: Charisma to AC

Marshal: Charisma to skills or a particular save (stacks with Divine Grace)

Slippers of Battledancing (DMG2): Charisma to attack and damage

Snowflake Wardance: Charisma to attack

Dry Lich (okay, this is very situational): Cha mod added to Con mod for determining hitpoints

Various Feats: Cha replaces the normal stat for the various saves

So Cha can substitute for Str, Con, Dex, and Wis in many cases with the right things. Sometimes it can even do so in multiple simultaneous stacking ways: with the proper things, it's possible to get 3x Cha mod to Will saves, for example. A lot of these would be limited in most games, either because they require some strange character choices or because the sources aren't allowed, but it just goes to show how ingrained the perception of Cha as a dumpstat is, since so many game designers went out of their way to allow it to do mechanical things.

In a game where some of these options are available, a character designed to exploit Charisma can easily end up being overpowered due to the ability to collapse all of their stat dependencies into a single stat. Doing so doesn't even really require going out of a character concept - a Paladin could use Divine Grace for the save bonus and the Slippers for the attack/damage modification, and could also go into Marshal to emphasize their role as a leader; a Bard could use Snowflake Wardance, the Slippers, Ruin Delver's Fortune, and Sirine's Grace all in theme, and Marshal again wouldn't be too far a jump. A rogue could go the battledancer route, which has some overlap already, and UMD scrolls or wands of the various spells.

 

[The Shaman]

A smart tactics player will do better in combat (with the same game stats) then a stupid player. Their real world skill affects the game, not by numbers, but by how the maneuver and avoid doing stupid things.

Real world persuasiveness is the same thing, except for social interactions, instead of combat interactions. It manipulates the game, beyond the numbers. It's just the way things work.

This means it's incumbent on the referee to set up encounters where both a player's skill at playing the game and the character's ability scores and skills are tested.

Roleplaying is the application of player skill; out-of-combat resolution is handled by stats like Charisma and related character skills and abilities.

My approach is that if the CHA 3 PC makes an excellent speech/argument, OK they made an excellent speech/argument, but they're still a slimy disgusting repulsive creature with BO, or whatever it is that makes their CHA so low, so they may not emotionally convince NPCs - the NPCs may ignore or mishear them - even if their argument is intellectually unassailable.

This happens IRL all the time.

I treat both CHA and roleplay ability as player resources. The player deploys that good-CHA resource wisely, in conjunction with good roleplay, to maximise the in-game effect. If you want your PC to be a beloved leader of men, you need a decent CHA, and your roleplay skills can help too.

Exactly.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In mid to high level 3.5ed D&D, Charisma is actually overpowered as a stat. No other stat can be used as a modifier for as many things as Charisma can with the right feat and class choices:

Most of those are bad examples. They're non-core and often class-based. (No one is saying it's weak for sorcerers, so it's not a surprise it's not weak for classes like OA shamans.)

but it just goes to show how ingrained the perception of Cha as a dumpstat is, since so many game designers went out of their way to allow it to do mechanical things.

None of these actually address the problem. They're just making stuff that works like a paladin. It's still useless for most characters.

 

[Raven Crowking]

One approach might be to allow characters to make Charisma-based attacks to inflict penalties on opponents ("I intimidate the kobold for -2 to attacks and damage until the end of the encounter!") If these were Cha vs. Cha attacks, and if they had prerequisite Charisma scores, you could make Cha very worthwhile.

I did this in RCFG, and there is a thread around here somewhere where Primitive Screwhead (I think) converted the idea to 4e.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Is that fair to the player running a Fighter who rolls something like 18, 16, 16, 12, 8, 8 and has to put his two bad stats into SOMETHING, and doesn't want to choose Str or Con?

Is it fair for the Wizard of the party to not have the same high Strength as a fighter so he can lift those heavy spellbooks?

Give me a break with this all characters must be exactly the same thing.

 

[NichG]

Most of those are bad examples. They're non-core and often class-based. (No one is saying it's weak for sorcerers, so it's not a surprise it's not weak for classes like OA shamans.)

It should be no surprise that some classes benefit more from a stat than others. Fighters and Barbarians don't benefit very much from Wisdom unless they are specifically built to take advantage of it (boosting a single save is not much to get from a stat), and only a little bit more from Int. Anyone with heavy armor isn't getting much from Dex. Wizards and sorcerors aren't getting much from Str.

Still, many of those options are based on items and spells, which can be made use of by any class (the latter through scrolls, wands, magic items using those spells, asking the party caster to help, etc).

As far as the non-coreness of things, I think it is generally fair to consider books other than PHB1 and DMG1 in considering what can be done in 3.5ed. Individual campaigns will always vary, of course, but many of the sources of things I listed are commonly whitelisted for most campaigns. It's been awhile since I've seen a campaign that won't at least consider material from the Complete books, for example. With the Complete books, PHB 1/2, DMG 1/2, and Spell Compendium things can get pretty far in Charisma's favor already.

Now, I'm not saying that these alleviate the problem, but these highlight a different side of it. Charisma is a very bipolar stat - in the hands of someone who doesn't look up all this stuff and figure out how to break it, they won't get much mileage out of it. In the hands of someone who goes out of their way to make a 'Charisma-build' its overpowered. It isn't an easy stat to get an even value from. I guess my point is, 3.5ed designers felt that Charisma was a dumpstat and added all sorts of mechanical ways to take advantage of it, but all of them sort of obscure and specialized. And so it becomes the sole domain of building for mechanics and not just something that comes naturally out of a character concept.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To those wondering why you would roll a dice instead of just spouting an epic speech:

Speech givers and speech writers are two different jobs for a reason. Not everyone who has a way with words has a way with speaking them.