Can DnD ever approximate the heroic literature?

[LordMelkor{Talos}]

Simon, don`t you use any more complicated battle encounters than simple duels, for example destroying enemy artifacts, stopping the retreat of your troops, disposing of treachorous commander, etc.?

 

[barsoomcore]

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort I would suggest the opposite is true: what keeps it interesting as a game in the long term is an unpredictable challenge level of encounters.

100%

If your players can't use math to figure out how to solve the problems you set them, they have to use character. And then you've got heroism if they're heroes and weaselism if they're weasels. You can't be afraid to pit your players against foes who can easily destroy them -- if the PCs fight, they'll die. You of course ought to give them alternatives to fighting, but the important point is to present them with opponents -- in their face -- whom they can't be confident of defeating in combat. Likewise, present them with opponents who they drastically outclass. Obviously these aren't going to be opponents in the physical sense -- it's not very interesting to be attacked by something that can't hurt you -- but there are plenty of ways to hurt someone that have nothing to do with hit points. The idea is to break the whole cycle of kill, kill, XP, kill. If your players are always being appropriately challenged then there are mathematical probabilities as to how they will benefit.

One of my group's most hated and feared enemies is an accountant. She's got no special abilities, about three hit points, no weapon profs or anything. When they hear she's in town, though, they run.

Okay, so my party's not all that heroic, but I know it's got nothing to do with the ruleset.

 

[barsoomcore]

I have nothing against having smart villains; what I don't like is the excessive emphasis in the Rainbow Six type action to be successful in the game. I think there's a happy medium between foolhardy charging into the unknown and sending in animated animal skeleton with echo skull spell atop it to scout ahead, the party staying apart 30' each to minimize area spells while still able to come to aid, the rogue going ahead and checking every darn brick for traps and using hand signals to alert the party of any developments, always hiding while moving (taking hits in movement), invisibility to animals on constantly to foil animal spies, pass without trace, sweeping areas constantly with detect magic, ad nauseum.

Wow. So your party is never under time constraints? All they ever do is sneak through static dungeons where they can take all the time they want? They never face villains who wait until they've used up their detect magic and so on and THEN strike?

Certainly what you describe is extremely unheroic. But I don't see how you can say that the fact that all your players do is sneak unheroically through dungeons is the fault of the game system. What's heroic about sneaking through a dungeon anyway?

Give them heroic things to do. This seems self-evident to me.

 

[Storm Raven]

I agree about adventures where the PCs can just call in an army but aren't expected to -- usually with no good reason not to. If the PCs are heroes, and they're facing a credible threat to civilization, why wouldn't the Duke send his men with them? And if the PCs are just strong enough to defeat this threat, the PCs plus the Duke's men should easily dispatch the enemy. The real issue then is: what keeps the "dungeon" safe from a horde of guardsmen?

Many adventures don't answer this. After all, if four heroes are good, why not a dozen? With henchmen?

A short answer would be "conservation of official resources". The Duke has soldiers, however, he does not have them in unlimited supply. Among other assignments, he needs them to guard the walls of his fortress, stand duty at toll bridges and be available as an intact fighting force should he get into a war.

Send his soldiers down into dangerous holes, or into the evil temple, or ruined fortress in the wilderness detracts from the ability of his soldiers to do those things. But if those vagabond adventurers get themselves killed while doing that sort of thing, the Duke loses almost nothing.

Adventurers are given tasks by the Duke for much the same reason that privateers were given Letters of Marque by the various European powers in the 1600s and 1700s. It is cheaper, probably gets the job done, and the Pcs are expendable.

 

[Henry]

In regards to the early comment that you never saw villains in the heroic tales skulk and be villainous: You also never saw them making resurrection preparations, pack everything in their backpacks except a 20-foot pole, and skulk every 10 feet like a bunch of SEALs on a mission either - like Wuxia said. Yet players bring it into the game, too.

I would like to add three more dimensions to this so-called "problem.:

• The characters are only as good as the players who play them. The players are all modern 20th century males and females who will instinctively think in 20th century ideas and terms. The modern idea of warfare and facing opponents is to Not get Hit, to hit the enemy in vulnerable areas, to use the most force possible in the shortest time, etc. - SEAL-like tactics. You don't want to fight valiantly, you want to WIN. Admittedly, because of hit points and lack of wound penalties, hitting someone until they stop moving IS the way to take someone out of combat, so that is the natural tactic.
• Agreed, there are some spells and abilities that make single creatures very vulnerable - Harm, any spell that reduces or eliminates Spell Resistance, and Power Word Kill. However, there are not so many that the system is unfixable. For instance, my opinion is that Harm should have one of two things in it: Either give the foe a save, or reduce it back to its 2nd edition rule, which was it had to be an attack against the full Armor Class of the foe.
• Trying to compare any RPG to Heroic literature is folly. It would be a fairer comparison if a novel were collectively written by 5 or more people, with each person contributing one paragraph at a time, and not necessarily in a systematic order. THEN you would have a novel that matched closer to PRG play. In any heroic literature, the entire tale, or almost all of it, would be told by ONE author, from whom all actions and plot elements flow. As a lesser example, Salvatore knows that Drizzt will never die in a story and remain dead; he still has more stories to tell, and more money to make, off of the story of the Drow Elf outcast. In a D&D campaign, someone MIGHT die and never come back; perhaps that player has decided he wants to play another character. The WHOLE PARTY might die through stupidity, and other heroes come in to take up the candle and see the quest through. You rarely see this in heroic literature of the past.
  [/list=a]
  
  In Summary, while heroic stories and exciting tales can be had, it is folly to make a game that is so restricted, that the PC's are FORCED by the DM into being heroic: If the players want to be conniving, Charlatanous S.O.B.'s, they shouldn't be forced into it, but rather all actions should have consequences. Any game that doesn't allow me to ambush or attack my enemies with my strongest offense, I would not play - because I am NOT going to stand toe to toe with powerful enemies, if that is the ONLY option to fight them in the game system. Heroes with Martyr Complexes may enjoy this, but I don't enjoy rolling up hundreds of characters to advance to second level. Just a dozen or so.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Likewise, present them with opponents who they drastically outclass.

I think DMs sometimes forget that totally outclassing your opponent can be very enjoyable for the players. They incorrectly assume that the only interesting battles are gauged to the correct level.

The hardened veterans that just polished off the Fire Giants fortress will get a kick out of saving the town from an attack by a dozen 1st level warriors. Or ambushed on the trail by a couple 3rd level Rogues. It is a psychological reward to play the hero that gets to show off and earn style points.

It is also a subtle hint that you never know what you are up against. NPCs get in over their head. Maybe the PCs can too?

Carefully making sure every encounter is carefully balanced for the party is sure way to encourage Rainbow Six style gaming. It also may teach the players to never bother to retreat.