Can Improved Feint be used with an attack spell?

[azhrei_fje]

I'm building a spellcaster that I'm thinking of giving Improved Feint. The feat requires Combat Expertise, but says that you can feint as a move action and for your next melee attack the opponent does not receive their Dex bonus to AC.

The description of the Feint maneuver in the SRD says, "the next melee attack you make against the target". For the following questions, assume that the feint attempt is successful, i.e. the attacker's opposed roll wins.

Given that my spellcaster can cast spells that require a melee touch attack, does that qualify as a melee attack? I think it does (as they threaten the area around them while holding a charge, they don't provoke an AoO, and so on).

If the answer is yes, can the spellcaster also use spectral hand to deliver the melee touch attack and receive the "no Dex bonus to AC" benefit from the feint? This is important because the spellcaster I'm building has a few levels of sneak attack damage available.

Thanks!

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Yes, you can use a touch spell with Improved Feint. And, so far as I can tell, you can use spectral hand to deliver the attack. Two things:

(1) To feint in combat using Bluff, you have to be "in melee combat" with the target. That's the PC in melee combat, which may not be what you want.

(2) It'll make your spectral hand, which is pretty fragile, a target.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Yes, you can use a touch spell with Improved Feint. And, so far as I can tell, you can use spectral hand to deliver the attack. Two things:

(1) To feint in combat using Bluff, you have to be "in melee combat" with the target. That's the PC in melee combat, which may not be what you want.

(2) It'll make your spectral hand, which is pretty fragile, a target.

I see. You think that using the spectral hand to deliver a melee touch spell at a distance is not melee combat. And that's based on the "distance" aspect of it, right? So a bunch of archers firing on an enemy are not in melee combat? Would they be in ranged combat? Or just "combat"?

Wow, I just read through some of the Combat section of the SRD. The section on "Armed" Unarmed Attacks says a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell is considered armed. It does not say that the opponent has to be 5 feet away (although that is implied by the Melee Attack section, with the caveat that "normal melee weapons" can only be used against adjacent creatures).

In fact, the second paragraph says that, "being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)." Which sounds like a spellcaster holding the charge using a spectral hand could make AOOs at a distance! The spell description says, For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack.

That part about "counts normally as an attack" sounds like the spellcaster now has a threatened area that encompasses the entire range of the spectral hand! That's pretty ridiculous, so it's got to be wrong.

My group doesn't ascribe to the FAQ as a source of rules, but rather as a source of opinion on the rules; still, I think it's time to go take a look.

Thanks for the help, Jeff.

 

[Shin Okada]

First of all, while a wizard can deliver touch attack spells through Spectral Hand,

1) It does not mean the wizard is automatically in melee with the creatures Spectral Hand can attack. That is Spectral Hand which attacks the foe, not the wizard. Those two are separate entities.
2) That means, the wizard does not automatically threaten the squares Spectral Hand can attack. Thus, the wizard cannot make AoO through Spectral Hand.
3) Also, Spectral Hand is not a creature/character. So Spectral Hand can't make AoO.

 

[azhrei_fje]

First of all, while a wizard can deliver touch attack spells through Spectral Hand,

1) It does not mean the wizard is automatically in melee with the creatures Spectral Hand can attack. That is Spectral Hand which attacks the foe, not the wizard. Those two are separate entities.
2) That means, the wizard does not automatically threaten the squares Spectral Hand can attack. Thus, the wizard cannot make AoO through Spectral Hand.

The wizard does not need to be "in melee" with an opponent for an AOO to be triggered.

Let's see:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally (my emphasis), that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Do you agree that the wizard can make melee attacks (in this case, melee touch attacks assuming that he is holding the charge) through the spectral hand? Note that this definition of "threatened squares" only applies while holding a charge.

3) Also, Spectral Hand is not a creature/character. So Spectral Hand can't make AoO.

No, but a spellcaster who is holding the charge for a melee touch attack spell IS a creature and CAN make that AOO. And because he threatens a large area (as shown above), he can use the spectral hand to make the attack. And the spectral hand is not listed as having a speed, so it can cover the entire area at once (just like a spiritual weapon doesn't have a speed).

Personally, I think this ruling is a bit much. But it seems perfectly valid within the RAW. It would've been nice if the spell description simply stated that the spell does not affect the caster's threatened area. The spiritual weapon spell doesn't have this problem because telling it to change targets requires a move action on the part of the caster.

As I said, this sounds ridiculous and I'd like to find a rule that refutes it.

 

[Shin Okada]

The descriptive text of this spell is a little bit vague. But as it says "The hand always shrikes from your direction.", I say the Spectral Hand is attacking, not the wizard himself. It is somewhat like a familiar delivering the master's touch spell. And there are many spell effects which attacks (like various higher-level hand spells).

Spells can be delivered by spectral hand. Yet, in that case the wizard is not making a melee attack (including melee touch attack). The hand (a spell effect) is doing it.

The hand can attack something afar from the wizard. But the wizard still cannot.

So the wizard himself is not threatening wider area.

 

[Herzog]

Jumping in with some comments:

First, the spell description specifically mentions the hand not being able to flank, instead of stating that it doesn't threaten. Which leads me to allow the hand to threaten squares, although it isn't able to flank.

Since the hand has no speed, and it can attack anywhere within reach as the caster desires (apparently instantaneous) it seems to threaten all squares within reach. (NB: I don't think 'desiring' something is designated any kind of action)

Since the number of attacks it can make is directly linked to the spellcaster, and it allways attacks from the direction of the spellcaster, the spell seems to somehow provide the caster with a specific type of reach.

Since delivering the touch spell is considered an attack, and an attack of oppertunity is a specific sort of attack, the touch attack could be made as an attack of oppertunity.

Which would lead to the caster being able to threaten all squares within reach of the spectral hand spell as long as he is holding a charge.

As an alternate interpretation, the caster can only move the hand in his own turn, and the spectral hand only threatens the squares around it, although it doesn't flank. This would mean the caster has an additional threatened area (as long as he is able to see the other threatened squares?)

Regardless, I don't think the hand can be used to Feint at a distance, for the same reason it can't flank: the target of the attack doesn't regard the hand as an opponent.

Any other circumstance that would make the intended target loose their Dex bonus to AC (like climbing) would allow the caster to add sneak attack damage to the delivered touch spell.

 

[BluWolf]

I think Herzog hits the cruxt of the issue for me. "In Melee" for purposes of feint would mean the target is actively trying to parry or gain some sort of advantage over the attacker by "correcting" or addressing a perceived threat. At range I do not see this as a plausible scenario.

So while I would allow it for a spellcaster engaged in melee (adjacent or 5") I would not allow it with in the range of the spectral hand.

A spirit vs letter of the law interpretation (no pun intended).

 

[irdeggman]

Deleted

 

[azhrei_fje]

Jumping in with some comments:

Thank you -- the first part of your post paralleled my thinking on this combination exactly. I was afraid that the thread of logic was going to be too convoluted to follow so I'm glad someone else was at least able to see my point.

Since the hand has no speed, and it can attack anywhere within reach as the caster desires (apparently instantaneous) it seems to threaten all squares within reach. (NB: I don't think 'desiring' something is designated any kind of action)

Yeah, I can't see the speed of "desire" as a limiting factor. However, I would be willing to say that the spellcaster must make the desire so it takes at least some thought on their part. (Even though a spellcaster can supposedly talk when it's not their turn if it's a short sentence. But can they do that if they're casting a 1-round spell? Would you tell a caster in the middle of a 1-round spell that if they spoke, they'd screw up the casting?)

Which would lead to the caster being able to threaten all squares within reach of the spectral hand spell as long as he is holding a charge.

Well, we played that encounter tonight. There were 7 players and 3 bad guys, but one of the bad guys went down pretty early. It turns out that the spellcaster that was going to use this tactic didn't really have time to do so. And every time I cast a touch spell and then wanted to feint first, I forgot (doh!) and had already cast the spell. So I ruled against myself (!) and said I couldn't split the cast/touch into two pieces and put the feint in the middle. (That's a topic for a separate thread, no doubt! Some would say that the feint is more effective if the opponents know the caster is holding a charge!)

Regardless, I don't think the hand can be used to Feint at a distance, for the same reason it can't flank: the target of the attack doesn't regard the hand as an opponent.

But whether you consider me an opponent or not doesn't change whether I threaten the square you're in, does it?

Any other circumstance that would make the intended target loose their Dex bonus to AC (like climbing) would allow the caster to add sneak attack damage to the delivered touch spell.

Yep, agreed.

Thanks everyone, for your help. And I must've done something right is irdeggman had to go back and delete his post.