Can my Knight do this?

[Prestidigitalis]

I'm developing a Knight concept that includes the following:

- Dwarf with speed 5
- Stalwart Knight - speed +Con mod (+4) on first turn of encounter
- Defend the Line stance -- slow until EoNT on hit
- Defender of the Wild (MC Warden) -- 1/enc free action mark each adjacent enemy until EoNT
- Boots of Adept Charging -- after charging, shift 1 before turn ends

So let's say it's the first turn of an encounter, and my Knight gets to go early because of a good initiative roll. I have an action point, and there are two clumps of enemies within 10 squares of each other. Can I do this sequence?

1. Move (up to) 9 squares (5 + 4 speed on first turn)
2. Charge 9 squares to attack an enemy in the first clump
3. Use free action to mark all adjacent enemies (MC Warden)
4. Shift 1 to move away from clump (Boots)
5. Action point, charge 9 squares to attack an enemy in the second clump
6. Shift 1 (Boots) to get adjacent to more creatures

I know that this exact setup might never happen, but I present it for discussion because there are a couple of places where I'm not sure what the rules allow.

First, can I use the Shift 1 from the Boots twice in one turn?

Second, can I use the free action to mark even though a charge is supposed to end one's turn? The turn continues because of the shift that the boots allow, and because of the use of the action point, but I'm not clear whether that is enough to support using the free action.

If it's all legal, then in this admittedly unusual circumstance I can mark a group of enemies, lock down another group with Defender Aura + Battle Guardian, and (with a bit of luck) damage and slow two enemies. I'd call that a nifty combo, if not precisely CharOp. (I gather they think Stalwart Knight is a **** Paragon Path.)

 

[Siberys]

1) Yes, you can use Shift multiple times a round with the boots. It's a property, so the effect occurs each time the ability triggers.

2) Yes. See point 3 under Charge; charges specifically allow free action afterwards.

Looks like your combo works. It's very situational, but it'd certainly be fun to pull off every once in a while.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

1) Yes, you can use Shift multiple times a round with the boots. It's a property, so the effect occurs each time the ability triggers.

2) Yes. See point 3 under Charge; charges specifically allow free action afterwards.

Looks like your combo works. It's very situational, but it'd ertainly be fun to pull off every once in a while.

Thanks for the answers. It just seemed like the kind of long string of "specials" that my DM might balk at, and that always makes me nervous.

Although that specific combo would indeed be very situational, some bits of it could come into play a lot. The Boots, for example, can help the Knight get into a position where more foes are adjacent after a charge, to give the Defender Aura a broader effect. Getting into the middle of a clump is also good for a defender, because it lets a striker get flanking on any one of the clump, but from the outside.

You know, I almost wonder if it's worth it to invest a feat in Improved Initiative, just to get the jump on those clumps before they break up...

(I've now used "clump" so often it doesn't sound like a word any more...)

 

[captainspud]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your turn end after you charge?

 

[Nullzone]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your turn end after you charge?

Charge

A creature uses the charge action when it wants to dash forward and launch an attack with a single action. Such an attack is sometimes referred to as a charge attack.

CHARGE A TARGET

Action: Standard action. When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target. Determine the distance between the creature and the target, even counting through squares of blocking terrain, and then follow these steps.
1. Move: The creature moves up to its speed toward the target. Each square of movement must bring the creature closer to the target, and the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position.
2. Attack: The creature either makes a melee basic attack against the target or uses bull rush against it. The creature gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
3. No Further Actions: The creature can’t take any further actions during this turn, except free actions.

A creature’s turn usually ends after it charges. However, it can extend its turn by taking certain free actions, such as spending an action point (which grants the creature an extra action).

Published in Player's Handbook 1, page(s) 287.


(http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/glossary.aspx?id=324)


Edit: Keep in mind that marking with the warden power will only cause those monsters to take a -2 penalty to attacks not made against you; they will not be subject to any kind of OA from you, as you are not equipped with a power that triggers on violated marks. The only enemies you can OA are the ones affected by the Defender's Aura.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Edit: Keep in mind that marking with the warden power will only cause those monsters to take a -2 penalty to attacks not made against you; they will not be subject to any kind of OA from you, as you are not equipped with a power that triggers on violated marks. The only enemies you can OA are the ones affected by the Defender's Aura.

Yes, I am aware of that. In fact, it's the reason why the scenario I describe above is the most useful way of applying the mark. If I apply a mark and then continue to stand adjacent to the creature marked, the mark actually invalidates the Defender's Aura -- it becomes a net negative.

My main interest in the Warden MC is for the skill training and access to the Crippling Crush feat. The mark is a situationally useful extra, and I've been trying to come up with ways to use it. I'm open to other suggestions.

In fact, let me just add an extra question here:

What is the best way to make use of marking ability (however it may be achieved) when you also have an aura ability that interacts poorly with marks, such as Defender's Aura?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

1) Yes, you can use Shift multiple times a round with the boots. It's a property, so the effect occurs each time the ability triggers.

I disagree with you on this one point, though I can see how you interpret it otherwise... the wording could really be clearer.

Here are the boots in question:

Boots of Adept Charging
Property: After charging, you can shift 1 square before your turn ends.

My own read is that if you have charged (at all) during a turn, you can shift 1 square before the end of your turn. So, if you charge multiple times, it still only gives you one shift.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

My own read is that if you have charged (at all) during a turn, you can shift 1 square before the end of your turn. So, if you charge multiple times, it still only gives you one shift.

I see what you are saying, and it's why I asked the question in the first place, but here is my interpretation:

1. you charge
2. is it before the end of your turn? YES, so you shift 1 square
3. action point, you charge
4. is it before the end of your turn? YES, so you shift 1 square

Compare the language to that of the Thief's Escape Artist's Trick:

Effect: You shift up to 2 squares. Once at the end of this turn, you can shift 2 squares as a free action.

"At the end of this turn" vs. "before your turn ends" -- one is a definitive point in time, the other is simply defined relative to an end point.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

You can actually use the Warden mark in the middle of other actions (confirmed in a Dragon article a long time ago).

Which means that you could use it with the charge even without the specific "you can use free actions after a charge" text: you move as part of the charge, mark, then make the attack part of the charge.


The fact that you can use the warden mark in the middle of another action means that you could use it while moving or the like. Move two squares, mark some enemies, then move the 3 additional squares to your real target (you'll suffer some OAs for this unless you can shift multiple squares). Use it as a debuff against enemies that you move near but aren't your primary targets.

Note that the marking from the Defender of the Wild feat is not actually the same as the Warden's Nature's Wrath marking. The feat doesn't actually say "Once per encounter, you can use Nature's Wrath", it just says "Once per encounter as a free action, you can mark each enemy adjacent to you until the end of your next turn." Which means that you can mark even on other people's turns, which wardens can't. You could mark an enemy that you expect to be moving away from you, for example. (GMs might not allow this, and I don't blame them.)

 

[BobTheNob]

When I first read this post, my "bag of rats" gland went crazy and I was just about to post the "No you cant do that because!" response.

Instead, on 2 levels
a) Im pretty sure this is completely legal
b) On reading again, Im nudging it out of my "bag of rats" zone and into the "interesting synergy" zone

Pretty circumstantial stuff but. As long as there are other reasons for moving down this sort of design path (which you have indicated there is) its pretty good. I would go to this much trouble just to cover off the first round scenario you have described though.