Can one of the lead designers of D&D please stand up and clarify "Rain of Blows"?

[cdrcjsn]

The indentation argument is a little off as well.

Yeah, some powers allow extra attacks contingent on hitting with the primary and this is shown by an indentation, but they almost always say so in the damage or hit line as well.

There's also the fact that all powers that have a weapon prerequisite description are also indented, so it can be read that the extra attack is merely contingent on the weapon wielded rather than on hitting.

Yeah, a designer commented, but unless he's the guy who actually wrote the power, I'd take that with a grain of salt. After listening to the podcasts, I realized that not all the designers are exactly on the same page with regards to the rules (for example, one allowed magic missile to be used for an OA when it clearly states basic melee attack, I think it was Mearls).

There's also the power issue. This one power would otherwise be more powerful than any other power up to epic levels if it's attack twice, followup with a secondary for each.

I think it's more reasonable (and the way it's currently written, it can certainly be interpreted that way) that you attack twice against the same target. If you meet the prereqs, then you get a third attack against the same or different target. It's still a powerful ability, but nowhere as powerful as allowing four attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is the two attacks line is in error and should be deleted.

Heh. So for a fighter with a sword, it's actually a "Rain of Blow"?

Can't see that being the correct answer, myself

-Hyp.

 

[keterys]

Seriously. The amount of cocaine you'd need for a Rain...

 

[Talon378]

Someone is going to have to explain to me sometime how the interpretation that Logan offered here is "more powerful" than all other powers in the game up to Epic level. In the very best case scenario, you would be getting 4W damage that you had to roll four successful hits in a row to generate, which i am sure that most here will tell you is very hard to come by in this system. If you are fighting level appropriate monsters, you are more likely to miss most creatures than you are to hit them, so the odds are very much against you that you will not get four successful hits in a row. The odds are that you will only get to hit with one or two of the attacks.


btw, our Ranger in our group just got a power at 9th level that gives him two attacks at 3W damage EACH! You think this is better than that? Really?


Dallas

The indentation argument is a little off as well.

Yeah, some powers allow extra attacks contingent on hitting with the primary and this is shown by an indentation, but they almost always say so in the damage or hit line as well.

There's also the fact that all powers that have a weapon prerequisite description are also indented, so it can be read that the extra attack is merely contingent on the weapon wielded rather than on hitting.

Yeah, a designer commented, but unless he's the guy who actually wrote the power, I'd take that with a grain of salt. After listening to the podcasts, I realized that not all the designers are exactly on the same page with regards to the rules (for example, one allowed magic missile to be used for an OA when it clearly states basic melee attack, I think it was Mearls).

There's also the power issue. This one power would otherwise be more powerful than any other power up to epic levels if it's attack twice, followup with a secondary for each.

I think it's more reasonable (and the way it's currently written, it can certainly be interpreted that way) that you attack twice against the same target. If you meet the prereqs, then you get a third attack against the same or different target. It's still a powerful ability, but nowhere as powerful as allowing four attacks.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Someone is going to have to explain to me sometime how the interpretation that Logan offered here is "more powerful" than all other powers in the game up to Epic level. In the very best case scenario, you would be getting 4W damage that you had to roll four successful hits in a row to generate, which i am sure that most here will tell you is very hard to come by in this system. If you are fighting level appropriate monsters, you are more likely to miss most creatures than you are to hit them, so the odds are very much against you that you will not get four successful hits in a row. The odds are that you will only get to hit with one or two of the attacks.


btw, our Ranger in our group just got a power at 9th level that gives him two attacks at 3W damage EACH! You think this is better than that? Really?


Dallas

Your ranger's lvl9 power deals 2x3[w] + 2x static bonuses. RoB deals 4x1[W] + 4 x static bonuses. So I'd say yes it will deal more damage.
And you have 4 chances to land a crit.

And missing could be reduced by getting CA (flanking), having a melee cleric or taclord (warlord's favor) or get some other buff. Your chance of hitting should be near 80% now. Seems like 4 attacks seem not too unlikely.

 

[Talon378]

Your ranger's lvl9 power deals 2x3[w] + 2x static bonuses. RoB deals 4x1[W] + 4 x static bonuses. So I'd say yes it will deal more damage.
And you have 4 chances to land a crit.

And missing could be reduced by getting CA (flanking), having a melee cleric or taclord (warlord's favor) or get some other buff. Your chance of hitting should be near 80% now. Seems like 4 attacks seem not too unlikely.

Only if you have: a)superior tactics, b)two other characters spending their abilities, and c)a character lucky enough to get the rolls. That is an awful lot of if's that are necessary to make that power really effective. As a DM, if I can get you to use three characters and three powers in one round in order for your Fighter to get 4W+ 4bonuses, then I'm a happy guy.

As far as the assertion that the RoB is going to do more than the Ranger's ability, how can you possibly say that? Remembering that the Ranger is just as likely to be getting the static bonus that the fighter is with his weapon, there is no way that 4W is going to outpace 6W unless there is a dramatic difference in the damage dice to begin with. The Ranger with his power has the potential to do 6W damage plus his bonuses twice, plus Hunter's Quarry at range. Remember, the Ranger has just as much of a chance of getting a crit on those rolls as the Fighter on his. I'm sorry guys, there is no way you'll ever equate 4W damage with what is intended to be a light weapon, i.e. the best damage weapon RoB works with only does 2d6 damage on a hit, or 8d6 in an optimum situation where you hit with all four attacks. Meanwhile, the Ranger with a Greatbow is doing 6d12 points of damage at a range of over 20 squares so that he never even has to be hit back if he's smart. If you all are looking for some broken powers, my friends, there they are. The Ranger class is full of them.

9th level Ranger using Attacks on the Run with Greatbow+2 and Dex of 18=6d12+12+1d6 Quarry damage, or a maximum total of 90 damage.

9th level Fighter using Rain of Blows with Heavy Flail+2 and Str of 18=8d6+24, or a maximum total of 72.

Remember, this is Maximum damage and assuming that both characters hit with all available attacks. How is Rain of Blows better? Because it is an encounter? That is offset by the fact that the Ranger can do this from 25 squares away taking no penalty for the attack roll, and never even see any retaliation.

 

[ThirdWizard]

This is how Rain of Blows played out in my last session:

Human 2H Fighter 20 Str wielding a Greatspear +2, Power Attack, Action Point with a Warlord giving +2 to hit, with flanking. +20 to hit. Every once in a while he might miss.

Damage: 1d10 + 5 (str) + 2 (enh) + 3 (power attack) + 3 (warlord). 1d10+13 damage.

All attacks hit. That's 4d10+52 damage. That's 74 damage average. If you want maximum, that's 92 before critical dice.

This is all from my actual game this past Saturday, not theorycraft.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Talon378 have you ever done some dpr calculations?

I guess no. So if you are interessted in doing some, visit WotC CharOp Boards and learn how to do so.


And your claim that I'd use superior tactics and allies proves what? - Just that I would make sure those first two attacks hit and I get to land the secondary 2 as well.

Nothing prevents your ranger from doing so as well. It is just that he will not beat RoB.

Just for your interrest:
LVL 9 Tempest Fighter STR 20, Double Sword +2 Reckless (LVL8), Iron Armbands of Power (IAP) +2 (LVL6) + WF (Heavy Blades) using RoB:

If we asume 45% hit and 5% crit that would lead to:
2x primary: 1d8 + 5 STR + 2 IAP + 1 WF + 6 Reckless (2+4) + 2 Tempest = (1d8 + 16)*2 = 20,5*2 = 41
45% hit = 18,45 dpr
5% crit = 2,55
2x primary attack = 21 dpr
The secondary attacks only trigger 50% of the time that leads to:
2x secondary attack = 10,5 dpr
So were looking at 31,5 dpr for RoB assuming 50% hit chance (45% hit, 5% crit).
Max dmg, no crits: 96

Your Ranger LVL9 using a Greatbow +2 Viscious (LVL7), DEX 20, +1 WF, Bracers of Archery (BoA) +2 (LVL6), Hunter's Quarry 1d8 with Attacks on the Run:
Because we are attacking both AC your chance of hitting will be 10% lower (1 weapon prof and 1 tempest) than the tempest's chance.
2*( 3d12 + 5 DEX + 1 WF + 2 BoA +2 weapon) = 2 * (3d12 + 10) = 2 * 29,5
2*35% hit: 2 * 10,325 = 20,65 dpr
2*5% crit: 2 * 2,95 = 5,9 dpr
2*60% miss: 2 * 8,85 = 17,7 dpr
HQ: 2,88 dpr
So you have 47,13 dpr with your Ranger.
Max dmg, no crits: 90

First of all I have to say, I have more experience in optimizing melee chars.
Your ranger's daily lvl9 beat my encounter lvl3 (dpr wise, max dmg RoB wins), get yourself a comparison with your ranger lvl 3 and 7 encounter powers. But the larger the static bonuses become the more the ranger will fall back, beacause RoB benefits up to four times and AotR only up to two times. If you like take a look at the numbers @ lvl 11, 16, 21, and 30. I'd say you will lose out for sure the higher the levels go up.

You brought up other aspects of the ranger like staying out of harms way but that has nothing to do with RoB's damage.

EDIT: added miss dmg for AotR.

 

[abyssaldeath]

This is how Rain of Blows played out in my last session:

Human 2H Fighter 20 Str wielding a Greatspear +2, Power Attack, Action Point with a Warlord giving +2 to hit, with flanking. +20 to hit. Every once in a while he might miss.

Damage: 1d10 + 5 (str) + 2 (enh) + 3 (power attack) + 3 (warlord). 1d10+13 damage.

All attacks hit. That's 4d10+52 damage. That's 74 damage average. If you want maximum, that's 92 before critical dice.

This is all from my actual game this past Saturday, not theorycraft.

Compare that with Crushing Blow's max damage on a non-crit using the damage bonuses ThridWizard used and a d12 weapon. 2d12+5+2+3+3=2d12+13=37max

The average damage ThirdWizard listed is double the max for Crushing Blow. Seriously do people not see a problem with that? Rob is so far out of the range that a 3rd level power should be it's not even funny.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

There's other considerations here too. Powers shouldn't always be viewed in a vacuum, but compared to other powers and other builds.

In order to even qualify for Rain of Blows you have to use what amounts to a weak secondary stat and a weak weapon group...as far as a Fighter is concerned anyway. Wisdom or Constitution as Secondary stats will usually give you better mechanical benefits, unless you're going for Heavy Blades and HBO (Which you're not with this build...unless you throw in dual weapons, but that's a whole other issue with them that has nothing to do with this power).

Addtionally, if we're going to assume that there's a Cleric or Warlord buffing the Fighter using RoB, then why don't we compare it to an optimized Fighter using Come and Get It or Warrior's Urging while getting similar buffs. It's absolutely trivial to get 4 or more enemies adjacent with Warrior's Urging, considering that it's a burst 4, and with equivalent buffs it would do more damage due to the higher number of W's being used. Come and Get It would also be able to easily pull 4 or 5 enemies, and would then approximately math Rain of Blows bonuses. Plus, these abilities have an advantage. According to Logan the power works as "Make an attack, if attack 1 hits then you get a secondary attack. Make a second attack, if attack 2 hits then you get a secondary attack." This means that if you miss a primary attack, then you don't get the Secondary attack. With Come and Get It and other burst powers, it doesn't matter what order you attack in and misses will not affect the overall number of attacks that you're attempting to make. In short, Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging will almost always outdamage Rain of Blows provided that you use it in a situation where you're pulling at least 3-4 targets. And don't even get me started on Cruel Reaper...

Now, granted, all of that is a comparison to when you're using Rain of Blows in such a way that you're targeting a different enemy with each attack. When it comes to single opponent damage RoB will win out over a lot of stuff. Again though, that's if you're concentrating on a weak secondary and using a weaker weapons group (as far as Fighter power selection is concerned). Perhaps this is just the designer's way of making that path a viable option? Look at Silverstep, for example. It requires a high Dex and the use of a Spear or Polearm to get the most benefit out of it. If you do that though, you have one of the most powerful push powers a Fighter can have. And it's an encounter! If you started with a 16 DEX and pumped it every level, then you would have a 20 DEX at level 14 (Silverstep is technically a level 13, but that's only one level past it) which would mean pushing two targets 5 squares a piece and then shifting 5 yourself. I don't think that there's any later powers that can match that, even dailies. Does anyone complain though? That's probably because A) it's a push, and B) you have to use an inferior weapon and secondary stat choice to maximize it's effectiveness.

Basically, it seems that the designers were trying to add in some unique powers to work for the non-HBO DEX fighters and spear wielders. Yes, they're very strong and you don't have to change them out at higher levels, but there also aren't a lot of non-Heavy Blade or Spear powers at the higher levels to change to! They're niche powers for a niche build.