Can somebody explain the bias against game balance?

[Tequila Sunrise]

It would be a rare Halfling who allocates his base stats the same as a Half-Orc.

There is a strong bias towards playing to your strengths -- and in a Halfling's case, his strengths don't include Strength.

So yeah, I think if you took some actual Half-Orc PCs and some sample Halfling PCs, there would be more than a 2 point difference in Str. The large bias would have been led by a small bonus -- not wholly represented by it.

Cheers, -- N

PCs are rare and special because they tend toward extremes. A halfling fighter is likely to be at least as strong as a half orc peasant.

For most NPCs, racial mods are the only difference. So a typical halfling wrestling a typical half orc is hardly less strong or more dextrous.

I prefer to think of Halflings in reference to Chimpanzees or other smaller than Human mammals, who for for their size can be stronger than the average person.

I also like to think that halflings, along with all Small creatures in D&D, have absurdly long arms to justify the equivalent Reach they have with Medium creatures.

I'm only half joking.

 

[BryonD]

For most NPCs, racial mods are the only difference. So a typical halfling wrestling a typical half orc is hardly less strong or more dextrous.

I've never played with basic npcs are straight 10s + racial mods.

I generally use something along the lines of 13 / 12/ 11/ 10 / 10 / 8 for even the most common of commoners. Presuming an 8 STR for a typical halfling commoner, adjusted to 6, and a 13 Str for a typical (!!) half-orc commoner, adjusted to 15, gets the job done nicely.

 

[AllisterH]

I

I've expressed the opinion on WotC's M:tG forum that players with a lot of dough have a significant advantage over players with more limited funds. Some people agree; but some people spend a lot of energy minimizing and rationalizing the result of more money = better cards.

So yeah, there definitely is a relationship between money and balance.

Of course, once you start talking about Limited, that "money = win" goes away.

 

[Garthanos]

Of course, once you start talking about Limited, that "money = win" goes away.

Ah back in the day.. we liked making some serious decks constructed entirely of common cards. (Ornithoptres and red and blue enchantments for them ) - but there never was an answer for a black lotus channeled fire ball one turn kill deck.... except another of the same.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've never played with basic npcs are straight 10s + racial mods.

I generally use something along the lines of 13 / 12/ 11/ 10 / 10 / 8 for even the most common of commoners. Presuming an 8 STR for a typical halfling commoner, adjusted to 6, and a 13 Str for a typical (!!) half-orc commoner, adjusted to 15, gets the job done nicely.

I've no interest in splitting hairs with you. All I'll say is that even assuming the warrior array of scores, I see no reason why two individuals of similar profession would arrange their stats differently just because of their race. For example a halfling blacksmith and a half orc blacksmith will both probably have a base 13 Str, modified by racials. Again, hardly a difference.

If you've found ways to make D&D a little more realistic, good for you. Me, I've made my peace with the fact that it's a crazy game from top to bottom!

Of course, once you start talking about Limited, that "money = win" goes away.

Limited are those events where you buy a limited number of booster packs, build your deck from them and then compete right?

 

[BryonD]

I've no interest in splitting hairs with you.

I don't see the difference between 6 and 15 as splitting hairs. Rather far from it, in fact.

For example a halfling blacksmith and a half orc blacksmith will both probably have a base 13 Str, modified by racials. Again, hardly a difference.

Now you are assuming that halfling culture and half-orc culture would not be defined by their characteristics.
Compared to seeing their societies as different, getting hung up on the stat mods *IS* very much splitting hairs.

 

[Votan]

I was a "gym rat" for a good portion of my life, which is why the 4Ed racial mods get under my skin and why I keep bringing up those as examples of "shoehorning."

A human kid of 80-100lbs body weight- about the size of a Gnome or Halfling- who is in excellent physical condition is going to be hard pressed to bench his body weight- roughly Str5 in 4Ed terms if you consider that a heavy load.

A typical "big" collegiate or NFL wide receiver of 180-200lbs (typical Human PC in D&D) would be able to bench around 300lbs, or about Str15 in 4Ed terms. A 250lb linebacker (about the size of a Half-Orc) might be able to bench 450lbs, or Str20+ in 4ED, while a 350lb lineman or NBA center like Shaq (equivalent to Dragonborn, Goliaths, Minotaurs and the like) may bench 600lbs or more.

So you can see why that mere +2Str mod just bugs the heck out of me.

I wonder if this makes more sense if you put the +1 level up increases into strength for the Goliath-type character?

There is, admittedly, a trade-off here when you use things (like ability scores) for very different measures (i.e. effectiveness in melee as well as emcumberance). A strong house cat can't lift a lot of weight but, in the same sense, it isn't at all unable to hit in melee (as many poor birds have discovered).

 

[Quantarum]

A human kid of 80-100lbs body weight- about the size of a Gnome or Halfling- who is in excellent physical condition is going to be hard pressed to bench his body weight- roughly Str5 in 4Ed terms if you consider that a heavy load.

A typical "big" collegiate or NFL wide receiver of 180-200lbs (typical Human PC in D&D) would be able to bench around 300lbs, or about Str15 in 4Ed terms. A 250lb linebacker (about the size of a Half-Orc) might be able to bench 450lbs, or Str20+ in 4ED, while a 350lb lineman or NBA center like Shaq (equivalent to Dragonborn, Goliaths, Minotaurs and the like) may bench 600lbs or more.

So you can see why that mere +2Str mod just bugs the heck out of me.

Not really. If the game was "Lifting and Pressing: A realistic RPG of pumping iron" it might be relevant, but in the context of D&D it's just a curious little aside like Batman being able to toss a hamburger ten miles in the 2nd edition DC RPG or a newborn baby being able to toss a football 25 yards in Champions. I don't worry about this sort of stuff anymore than I spend time wonder why a dragon the size of a small office building doesn't pulp the fighter the first time it's claw lands.
-Q.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't worry about this sort of stuff anymore than I spend time wonder why a dragon the size of a small office building doesn't pulp the fighter the first time it's claw lands.
-Q.

Thats what abstract hit points for .... you know it was one of the things that bugged me back in the late 70's and its now a saving grace. (Of course other mechanics now support that definition better than in the past).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It bugs me too. I mean, if a 4e halfling and a half orc arm wrestled, a DM would probably settle it by way of opposed Str checks. Assuming the same starting stats, the half orc is only going to win 11 times out of 20 -- Standard deviation is likely to make much more of a difference than that! If the two characters weren't described to me, and I didn't know their Str scores I'd have see like a hundred wrestling matches to be reasonably sure that one was marginally stronger than the other.

Here's where we differ: I see this issue in every single edition of D&D. If a 3e halfling and half orc wrestled, the half orc still only beats the halfling 12 times out of 20. Hardly matters, IMO.

True...up to a point. A Half-orc is still only 2x to 2.5x bigger than a hafling...but a Minotaur, Goliath, or Dragonborn may be 3-4x more massive.

I prefer to think of Halflings in reference to Chimpanzees or other smaller than Human mammals, who for for their size can be stronger than the average person.

A chimp has different anatomical proportions and muscle/bone/other mass ratios that allow them to have that greater strength for their mass- Gnomes & Halflings don't.

But lets just leave that aside, saying instead that something about their nature- lets call it the same kind of magical nature that lets dragons fly- that lets them be stronger for their mass than you'd expect.

That still doesn't explain why the races that are utter slabs of muscle are so much weaker than we'd expect them to be.

Dannyalcatraz, I think you could safely play with the bonuses and penalties for races in 4e without much harm to game balance. There is room for a +1 bonus to attacks and damages and some skills (which is the bulk of what you are talking about for balance issues), without the game creaking much.

True, but I'll leave that to those who are willing to run the game.

I'm just bringing this all up as an example of how shoehorning these massive creatures into the balanced race structure of 4Ed- so far as it has been implemented- has diminished those races. The Goliath and Minotaur simply aren't what they used to be.

They aren't even up to human powerlifter levels.

Not really. If the game was "Lifting and Pressing: A realistic RPG of pumping iron" it might be relevant...

I was using those stats as an approximation of Carrying capacity from the 4Ed PHB. Strx20 = Heavily loaded: you can lift it with 2 hands and carry it with difficulty. It's not a bad approximation, either. Someone's max bench press is easily discovered- its a very popular stat as compared to someone's dead lift- and while its usually lower than the dead lift, it wouldn't be easy to walk around with, either.