Can the Fighter be Real and Equal to spellcasters?

[MichaelSomething]

Many people want Fighters to be equal to spellcasters. There are many on the internet who believe that the Fighter is a weak class and needs a serious remake. They don't want to be outclassed by Codzillas, wizards, etc.

Many people also want Fighters to be realistic. There are many on the internet who want fighters to represent Conan and keep them based on warriors of history like knights, the Huns, etc. They don't want the fighter to become "anime" or "videogame" like.


The real problem is that many believe that the 4E Fighter's "realism" has been scarified along the way. This is being in done to both increase appeal and increase balance (however in what degree it is one way or the the other I'm not sure of).


My question is, is it possible for Fighters to matain realism while still keeping up with spellcasters who can literally ignore the laws of physics?
Is it one or the other? Can the Fighter do both? If you have proof of this, please show me!

 

[Doug McCrae]

My question is, is it possible for Fighters to matain realism while still keeping up with spellcasters who can literally ignore the laws of physics?

Nerf magic.

 

[Aldarc]

Can the spellcaster be real?

 

[StarFyre]

no

in a logical method no.

Reason I say logical is in the method and style.

ie. magic is defined by, essentially, stuff that allows you to do things that aren't possible. Technology on the otherhand (even sci-fi) is based on the assumption that if it's not doable now, it MAY be in the future (but it's still based on facts, science, math, etc).

Since magic can alter reality, change history, stop time, destroy worlds with a thought (yes, you could technically make a spell todo that if you really wanted, and in some games/comics, stories, characters can do that..Blackheart does it with magic, in marvel comics, rips a world apart, killing billions), etc.

A regular warrior can never beat this...IF the spellcaster is allowed to have the spells that they can logically (in terms of, let me create whatever i want to create since there is no reason i can't....) what i mean by this is, no arbitrary balance rules saying "we won't allow this since we want fighters and thieves to have a chance" . If magic exists, there is no reason that a wizard couldn't create spells like Wish, Disjunction, Karsus' Avatar, Mavin's Raise Volcano, Time Stop, Time Duplicate, Gate, etc, etc, etc.

It's the main gripe my players have with 4E. They prefer the style that wizards can do anything BUT due to our play style, this never causes problems, if wizards are more powerful once you reach mid way and later. (for this reason, I'm going to house rule the wizard alot, once I see the 4E version..to make it moreto what they want and what I expect for my cosmology, etc).

Anyways.

Sanjay

 

[shilsen]

My question is, is it possible for Fighters to matain realism while still keeping up with spellcasters who can literally ignore the laws of physics?

The answer is heavily mediated by what you define as realism. I, for example, do not define realism in the D&D game as anything like realism in our world. I think it's much closer to realism in myth. And I think the way for fighters (or any other primarily non-spellcasting class) to keep up with spellcasters is to emphasize that mythic reality is acceptable for both spellcasters and non-spellcasters. Fighters in D&D should aspire (especially once they have a few levels under their belt) to be less like Conan and more like Cuchulainn, less like the Gray Mouser and more like Hercules, less like Aragorn and more like Bhima. And so on.

 

[Simm]

Yes, but it's the magic not the fighter that you have to change.

Look at WFRP, magic is more or less balanced as a character option because, if you use it for any length of time, you draw the attention of things you'd rather not meet. Unless you introduce that or some other serious drawback to magic (UA style taint might also work), it's just too powerful.

 

[cr0m]

Realism is a tricky bugbear when you're talking about games. I think it's a bad term for this kind of discussion, because what is realistic to me sure ain't Conan. And D&D sure ain't anything remotely approaching historical fighting men. IMO, of course.

Sidestepping the realism question, do you mean you want fighters to be as effective at dealing death to their enemies as spell casters? Or do you mean you want fighters to be able to go toe-to-toe with spellcasters.

 

[JohnSnow]

A regular warrior can never beat this...IF the spellcaster is allowed to have the spells that they can logically (in terms of, let me create whatever i want to create since there is no reason i can't....) what i mean by this is, no arbitrary balance rules saying "we won't allow this since we want fighters and thieves to have a chance" . If magic exists, there is no reason that a wizard couldn't create spells like Wish, Disjunction, Karsus' Avatar, Mavin's Raise Volcano, Time Stop, Time Duplicate, Gate, etc, etc, etc.

Here's the thing. That's only true if you decide that there's no limit on wizard's power except what they can imagine. That may be your particular preference, but it's not an inherent property of magic.

If magic follows rules at all, it can be restricted by any rules that seem reasonable. For example, in Christopher Paolini's Inheritance trilogy, wizards are limited by their strength. Magic lets them do anything they could physically accomplish. If they try to cause a magical effect beyond what they could do physically, they will die from the effort. In the Harry Potter novels, there's all kinds of things magic simply can't do. For example, if time isn't susceptible to magic, then magic users can't travel in time. If death is irreversible, magic can't raise the dead.

Wish is a pointlessly open-ended spell. It's "I can do anything." Simply because people in our world can't do magic, but they can in D&D doesn't mean that they have to be able to do literally anything.

I'm very glad that 4e is doing away with the mentality of "wizards über alles." Because as long as wizards can do anything, you can't make any other class remotely relevant. If you want to play that game, go ahead. It's called Ars Magica.

D&D has always run with theory that all classes are equal, or at least "equally valuable." Fourth Edition will finally make a serious attempt at making that a reality. And if they have to nerf wizards and allow Beowulf-style fighters to make it happen, I say "so be it."

A high-level paragon fighter should be capable of amazing feats - the kinds of things that happen in myths and sagas, not just what's in sword & sorcery novels.

Your fantasy wizards who are more powerful than everyone around them are 20th-level PCs in a world full of 6th-10th level ones. That's why they're so 'uber' - it's not just because 'they're wizards.'

My opinion.

 

[Nifft]

Many people also want Fighters to be realistic. There are many on the internet who want fighters to represent Conan and keep them based on warriors of history like knights, the Huns, etc. They don't want the fighter to become "anime" or "videogame" like.

Can my Fighter get a doctor's note which excuses him from reality when he has to fight unreal monsters like Dragons, Ghosts or Balors?

Cheers, -- N

 

[small pumpkin man]

Even in Core 3.5 the difference between Barbarians and Sorcerers is a decent chunk less than the difference between Fighters and Wizards, so it can certainly be made better. Compare the difference between Warblades (or a well made multiclassed Barbarian/something else fightery if you must) and a Warlock and the "fighter type" pretty much catches up and may even come out in front, so yes, it's certainly possible, you just have to give Fighter types actual abilities (which don't have to be over the top, just so they give useful bonuses and options vs opponents which aren't other Fighters) and limit magic.

Another way to do it, is of course to set it up so that Fighter can do his "job" without needing the Wizard, and make sure the Wizard cannot take over the Fighter's "job", note this doesn't have to be as strict as the roles system, you just have to say, (in 3.5) remove polymorph and a lot of the Wizards more powerful defensive and in combat movement spells so that while a Wizard is still powerful, and brings a lot more to the party than the Fighter, he still needs a fighter to protect him for a round or two while he completely pwns the monsters. (Note that that was an example, I do not use that house rule, or recommend people use it without thinking it out more.)

Magic is only an "I win button" in D&D because of tradition, note that there are a bunch of systems d20 and otherwise which use magic and don't have the problem of magic being completely over the top (although there are plenty that do), if you're having trouble conceiving how this is possible, ask for some examples, and I'm sure people more experienced than I can give you some.