Can the hide skill be used in this situation?

[nakia]

Maybe what you should focus on is the "well-lit" aspect of the situation. Depending on the hight of the ceiling, the size of the room, and the light source in the room, the ceiling may be cloaked in shadows. This would provide concealment and thus, a chance to use the Hide skill as written. It may not be much concealment, if the room is small and lit by a lantern or torch, and may thus necessitate a substantial penalty to Hide.

Of course, this is my first non-question post to the Rules Forum ever, so here's some grains of salt.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ah this again...

You're looking at an idiotic change incorporated in 3.5 (among many).

In 3rd edition you do not need cover or concealment to hide. The circumstances are entirely up to the DM and he applies a circumstance bonus or penalty depending on the conditions.
The vampire on the ceiling isn't quite as classic as the polar bear.
Essentially in 3.5 a polar bear can't sneak up on you on an open plain. You could be white on a white background and the 3.5 rules state you can't hide, at all. You need a shrub in the way.
It's dumb, really dumb.

So basically if you have a vampire clinging to the ceiling of a room and the player doesn't look up I would allow a hide check. If the vampire's coloration is the same as the ceiling then I'de give him a cirumstance bonus of +2 on the check. If it's close but not quite, a -2 penalty. If it's radically different, then -8 or more depending on the illumination as well.
If the player states specifically before entering the room "I look up" then give him a circumstance bonus of +2 or even +4.

So just use the 3rd edition hide skill and apply circumstance.

 

[Tellerve]

the complete adventurer has rules for using the Hide skill and going from a place of cover and concealment to another place of cover and concealment through the old brightly lit areas of open terrain. Finally rogues can sneak up on guards that aren't nestled in shadows.

Basically you need 5 ranks in hide, and then for every 5 ranks you have you can move 5 feet of open space at -5 on your check. If you wanna move faster then you take the normal movement penalty for moving faster already mentioned in the phb hide skill. So, it'll be tough to scamper across a large open area but not necessarily impossible. Also, I'd have given that guard the -5 distracted modifier so that buys you 5 feet of movement at least.

hope that helps ya,

Tellerve

 

[irdeggman]

What should I do, who should I ask, where should I post, what do y'all have to say that I could convence my group to allow a hide check without concealment in unusual places? Or you might have something to say to convence me that you can't do it. Either way is fine as long as it is resolved.

Patrick

This is the gist of you issue as I read it. It wasn't can this be done but how can I convince my group it is allowed.

I don't think anyone will be able to help you here since the RAW specifically dissallows it. It pretty much comes down to house rules or situational concealment. If there are any shadows then Hide is allowed. It should be noted that higher level rangers can hide in natural surroundings regardless of conditions (class ability).

 

[irdeggman]

I haven't gotten my hands on my copy of the CA yet, but that does indeed sound like a good rule for 3.5. It does seem (based solely on the previous post) that the character must start out in place of concealment before moving across open ground though.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Someone once coined, "I look up. I look down. I look all around. Do I see, hear, feel, smell, taste or sense anything unusual?"

After the phrase was said a dozen times in the first game, we came to a clarification that it isn't necessary. As DMs (we all take turns DMing episodes in our story arch) we are not going to attempt to screw anyone over this issue. We use the spot/listen skills all the time. Characters with lots of skill in them traditionally see everything, and those that don't, traditionally don’t see things (my character for example). We've come to rely on curtain characters to have "good eyes." The player feels himself lucky to have a very high rank in spot. We all feel it would wrong the "character" to not allow him spot rolls to see things that other gaming groups would say, "Oh, I'm sorry. You never said you were specifically looking up."

[snip Spider Man example]

Comments & Opinions?

Patrick

I'd totally agree with this. It is assumed that a character is paying attention to his surroundings. In a dangerous area, characters are assumed to be as alert as possible, including looking up, down, and all around. Lucky for us, though, there's a mechanic built right into the game for this situation! It's called making a Spot check! People with high Spot checks are better able to remember to look around and be aware, just as a matter of routine. This includes looking up at the ceiling. This even includes noticing somebody in a shadowy alcove right above the door after you go in the room, even though he's readying an action to fire a crossbow at your head as soon as you come into the room. Not a normal place to look right away, but somebody who rolls a 35 on their Spot check has successfully remembered to look there and isn't surprised.

As far as the well-lit, vaulted ceiling goes, by the rules there is no hiding. Ad-hoc DMing, I'd allow a hide check, but at a significant penalty, perhaps -10. If the ceiling is high enough, you might rule that even though the floor-level is well lit, by the time you go up to the peak of the dome it's only shadowy illumination, allowing a hide check by the rules.

 

[dcollins]

I may be biased because I only play 3.0. However, this does sound like a classic spider-hanging-on-the-ceiling situation, and perfect for a normal Hide vs. Spot check, and that's what I'd do. I guess this might be another reason why my group has stuck with 3.0, even if it does take a bit of DM adjudication.

 

[Marimmar@Home]

Well, I stand by my opinion unless the player states that he takes a look around he will walk right into the ambush of the vampire. When he states, 'I take a look around before entering the room, can I see the vampire somewhere.' Bingo no more surprised hero. After all the vampire hangs in plain sight, no need for a Spot vs Hide roll.

I guess it all comes down to personal taste. As a DM I would allow the rogue to sneak up on the guard facing the other direction. A Move Silently roll would be all that's needed, not a Spot vs Hide.

~Marimmar

 

[pawned79]

I think I will try looking in the Complete Adventurer for that additional hide technique. That may solve my problem with little fuss from my group. Our main DM does now have the CA.

If, as stated, that the CA says you can move from a hiding spot to a hiding spot over non-hiding areas with the appropriate checks, then that may be fine. Think about this situation:

You are going through someone's desk looking for something. Your listen check alerts you to someone approaching. You quickly run behind the door (full concealment). The person comes into his office and approaches his desk. He tosses some papers on the desk and stretches. He looks around and sees nothing unusual, because you have already taken a movement action through an open area and gone out the door and around the corner (full concealment). This of course assumes that he has not bested your hide and move silently rolls in order to turn around a moment sooner or to hear you step on a squeaky floorboard. “Hey you! Stop! Stop I say! Guards!”

I think pointing out that high ceilings may be in shadow illumination might be a good way to get what I want. Unfortunately, if someone has Darkvision, I’d be screwed. But that is okay. That is what Darkvision is for, right?

Subsequently, the hide rule talks about using a bluff check to distract someone. It discusses it in a: “What’s that behind you!?” style. In which you distract someone who is already looking right at you and then bolt behind the bushes. “Damn! Now, where did he go?”

Bluff might be the way to go in some situations to avoid confrontation. I just thought of two funny examples of a successful bluff and an unsuccessful bluff: A museum guard chases you into a room filled with wax statues. You bluff and pretend you are a statue. He runs by you and into the next room. You sneak away. Second, you are rummaging in someone’s office, and you hear them coming in too late. You can’t of anything to do at a split second, so you grab the lamp shade from the lamp and put it over your head and stand really still in the corner. “Maybe he won’t notice.” “What the...! Guards!”

Patrick

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sounds like you've got the situation well in hand, Pawned!

Note that, with the Darvision example you gave, the vampire can still make a Hide check - he'll just automatically fail against the dwarf. Also, chances are good that the vampire will be in full illumination for any elves or half-elves in the party (with low-light vision), and so will fail against them, as well.

Still, any humans or halflings in the party *will* have to roll to see him, meaning they will have a chance to be caught off-guard during the surprise round.