Can WoW Combat Tactics Translate?

[Kri8or]

I've been playing lots of World of Warcraft lately and it's making me think about dungeon combat in ways I hadn't really done before. Currently I'm setting up a campaign in Rappan Athukk and the environment - enclosed rooms, set numbers of bad guys, the possibility of adds if the group messes up or lets baddies escape - seems similar. So now I'm curious if any other WoW players or gamers in general have attempted some of the same group tactics in a rp setting.

For anyone who doesn't play or hasn't gotten in to any high level instances, WoW can be an extremely unforgiving environment for groups who don't have a plan, stick to it, and work together. One person messes up and the chance for a tpk is incredibly high. Every character has a specific job, they carry that job out, and things stay nice and efficient until things go bad, they adapt as quickly as possible, then try to get back to the plan. The biggest difference would be warriors and the concepts of crowd control and tanking. In a DnD setting a warrior fighting defensively and using combat expertise would get up to -9 to hit, +7 to AC while still being able to do AoO if the baddie tried to get around. Shield Slam from Complete Warrior would allow him to try to stun anyone with a low Fort save and sunder and disarm become very valuable as ways to keep that baddie's attention away from the clothies. This just requires a fighter who isn't trying to do maximum damage every round, something I've almost never seen at a gaming table.

For the finger wigglers of the group this would also call out for a couple rounds of not doing damage. Hold person is an obvious one, but Deep Slumber, Rainbow Patter, and various walls would be good ways of taking baddies temporarily out of the fight. Then once the situation is under control they can lay on the damage.

Rogues would remain one of the primary damage sources in the group with backstabs, Hamstring to keep baddies from legging it, and poisons.

This has really been accuring to me as I've been getting more and more frustrated playing in groups where everyone wants to do the big damage, score the kill, and be the one man army. Does anyone else run into this issue? Is your group a team or a bunch of individuals? Does tanking work in DnD or does the lack of the ability to maintain a baddie's attention make it impractical? Is the magical crowd control viable or do low dc's make it unreliable? Do you despise what has become of DnD when someone compares it to a video game? Let me know!

 

[Victim]

There's nothing except stupidity to keep the monsters attacking the expertising tank. Since the monsters are controled by another player, the situation is more analagous to PvP in which most Wars run with Arms/Fury with 2 handers. Sure, in tight quarters, the group can body block to keep enemies from casters - however, the rogue isn't flanking in those cases. Not to mention that DnD AoE stuff is less party friendly - the mage just can't slap fireballs on the tank and his enemies.

Moreover, disabling powers such as Hold Person in DnD often set the target up for a coup de grace; using them as CC instead of as prelude to instant death is usually pretty risky. Using Wall spells segment an encounter into more manageable chunks is more like WoW crowd control strategies. Usually that's a pretty effective move.

Finally, healing spells are far less effective relative to incoming damage than in most MMOs. Having the cleric do damage usually ends the encounter faster, and thus is very effective preventive medicine. Plus touch range heals require the cleric to be in the thick of fighting.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As has been alluded to, a lot of MMORPG tactics are a reflection that NPC artificial intelligence is (by design) pretty stupid.

That said, fantasy MMORPGs are all pretty nakedly inspired by D&D, so a lot of it does carry over. Concentrating fire on a single target at a time is actually something I saw mentioned in a Dragon letter years ago, but it's now SOP in MMORPGs. Protecting the weaker characters, especially those that can heal, is logical in both games, etc.

The Knight in the PHB2 and the taunt feat (I forget what it's called, it's been in like three different WotC books now) are obvious nods to the MMORPG style of play, and while they haven't been uncontroversial, they do work well in D&D. (Better than taunt works in EQ1, certainly.)

I think a smart group with MMORPG experience will have another data point to bring to D&D tactics, but I don't think there's a 1:1 crossover in tactics and strategies.

 

[El Ravager]

I think the Knight class from the phbII was made for WoW tactics and you should look at it Kri8or if you haven't already. It seems to actually have aggro management abilities that will keep the monsters swinging at the combat expertise using tank. Haven 't seen it in play yet, so how effective this is remains to be seen, but it should be seen shortly as a player just rolled one up for our game.

 

[Kri8or]

I wasn't planning on picking up the PHB2 but I'll try to check out the Knight. Can anyone tell me what the taunt feat is called and what book it's in? I've been avoiding buying anything from WOTC for a while so I'm kinda behind on all the new feats and PrCs.

 

[Kri8or]

There's nothing except stupidity to keep the monsters attacking the expertising tank... Not to mention that DnD AoE stuff is less party friendly - the mage just can't slap fireballs on the tank and his enemies.
Finally, healing spells are far less effective relative to incoming damage than in most MMOs.

I agree there isn't a good way for fighters to hold aggro in DnD. That was really the question I needed answered most here. Hopefully the Knight class and the feats that were mentioned will offer some help.

There is targeted AoE in I believe Magic of Faerun. I don't have it handy but it's a spell with fireball equivalent damage that hits multiple targets. Firebrand, maybe? That spell with energy substitution was used by one of my players to get out of many tough spots in our last campaign. I totally agree with the healing in some instances, though. The numbers don't compare, but in melee neither does the damage coming from the baddies since in DnD armor stops attacks rather than stopping a percentage of damage. Magical damage/breath weapons/nasty effects that ignore armor are another story, however.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Can anyone tell me what the taunt feat is called and what book it's in? I've been avoiding buying anything from WOTC for a while so I'm kinda behind on all the new feats and PrCs.

It's in Miniatures Handbook and I think PHB2 and Complete Warrior. I'm totally blanking on the name, though.

 

[KenM]

One of the thing that annoys me about WOW is how that tank can be up there, hacking on the monster with a weapon, you blast it with a fireball from a ways away, the monster can then runs right past the the tank swing on him, totally ignoring the tank, and tryes to swing on the caster.

 

[Agent Oracle]

I think the Knight class from the phbII was made for WoW tactics and you should look at it Kri8or if you haven't already. It seems to actually have aggro management abilities that will keep the monsters swinging at the combat expertise using tank. Haven 't seen it in play yet, so how effective this is remains to be seen, but it should be seen shortly as a player just rolled one up for our game.

Seen it in play... not game-breakingly effective.

Knights are meant to be a meatshield's meatshield, but even in full plate, they can't handle taking multiple rounds of full attack from a significnat enemy.

The first Knight's challenge (Fighting Challenge) only gives the knight a + to hit / + to damage / + to will saves against the targeted enemy (like a ranger's favored enemy, but only applies to one target, so if there are 5 "drow", you get to challenge one of them, while the ranger gets his + against each of them)

The second Knight's challenge (test of mettle) just takes the guesswork out of who the big-bad is. All monsters within 100 feet with a CR greater than your level -2 get a will save, if they pass, they can ignore you. if they fail, they start attacking you as a preference. In short, it draws out the big damage dealers to blast you, but only if they fail a saving throw.

The third challenge (Call to battle) gives bonuses to allies saves Vs. fear effects.

THe fourth challenge (daunting Challenge) is a De-buff technique, which causes large groups of weaker foes to become shaken.

The fifth challenge (Bond of loyalty) Gives additional saving throws against mind-altering effects.

The sixth (loyal beyond death) just keeps a Knight on his feet regardless of how many HP he's lost (he can be at negative infinity, as long as he has challenges left, he can keep going.)

Also, for most of the game ,their challenge only works on things their level (or their level -2) in CR, so a single knight can't draw the attention of

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

One of the thing that annoys me about WOW is how that tank can be up there, hacking on the monster with a weapon, you blast it with a fireball from a ways away, the monster can then runs right past the the tank swing on him, totally ignoring the tank, and tryes to swing on the caster.

To be fair, a monster could do that in D&D, too. The monster running away from/past the tank can and still does get whacked on. A fast-thinking tank can snap the monster's attention back.