Can you "crit" a miss?

[Nichwee]

I ask having read the first page or two of the Ardent Champion thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/260763-adent-champion-rules-lawyers-required.html.

If you score a crit* but do not HIT the target's defence can it still be considered a crit?
I mean can it do things like maximise the damage you can do on a Miss (if the power includes a Miss line that has damage in it)?
Could it still trigger effects from a "if you score a critical hit"?
It not hitting the target means you don't apply the Hit line, but does that stop it being a crit?

I find myself wondering what people think here, and what effect it would have on the game in general if you could crit a miss. As it might be a nice boon to builds that can get a lot of crits but can't always expect them to hit, but it might overpower some horrendouly (tho I find myself thinking it won't as crits are rare, crits that miss are even rarer).

For the record I can't decide on my opinion on this tbh.
Well open to debate now.


*I am intentially abbreviating the name to avoid the "it is a critical HIT so of course it matters if you hit or not" responses.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So, you want to restart a 31 page thread instead of reading it? I vote to close this one.

 

[Nichwee]

I didn't want to restart the debate in the linked thread. I just pointed out it was made me think about this question.

I was just wondering what the effect would be of allowing a crit to be a crit even when it is a miss? And what people thought of this idea of making a crit completely idependent of a hit.

 

[abyssaldeath]

This was fully discussed IN DETAIL on the Holy Ardor thread. In fact this subject is the reason it went on for 31 pages. There is no need to rehash this argument.

 

[Nichwee]

Then SORRY.

Didn't feel like reading 20 pages about a PP when what I wanted to discuss was crits. I figured that would have been a forked thread if the topic changed that much.

 

[eamon]

Didn't feel like reading 20 pages about a PP when what I wanted to discuss was crits. I figured that would have been a forked thread if the topic changed that much.

Don't take it too personally, but if a thread's been that long, then anyone with anything to say about it has probably said it until frustration.

If you truly want to discuss a tangent, make sure it's clearly distinct.

For example, if a character crits on 19-20, and rolls a 19 and misses, do crit-specific events occur? Ignoring Ardent Champion, this is not the case: crits occur only when your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target's defense (see PHB 278, bottom left block).

Does that answer your question?

 

[Nichwee]

For example, if a character crits on 19-20, and rolls a 19 and misses, do crit-specific events occur? Ignoring Ardent Champion, this is not the case: crits occur only when your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target's defense (see PHB 278, bottom left block).

Does that answer your question?

That is my point, but it is not my answer.

The bit of text you quote is for saying "Well the natural 20 is going to activate the Hit line, so trade the crit effects for the Hit line".

But what about rolls that don't activate the Hit line?
If the Miss line is "Miss: Half damage" why can't you apply crit rules to the Miss line? Work out the crit damage of the power and then apply the Miss line - giving you (max damage + bonus crit damage)/2 in this case, or no damage in most cases (as a lack of a Miss line is basically a 'Miss : This power deals no damage and applies no conditions' line. Or if the Miss line says "Deal 5 damage" then this would of course override the crit damage as you only apply the damage that the result of your attack tells you too).

Would having missed stop your crit from having triggered "if you crit" effects?

Basically, I was asking about assuming the crit remains a crit even if it is a Miss (as opposed to the case of natural 20 where it explicitly trades a 'crit that Missed' for a 'Hit that didn't crit').

 

[Flipguarder]

I won't berate you for making this thread and re-opening for the second time in two days a topic that sears me so. But I reserve the right to hate you.

 

[eamon]

Basically, I was asking about assuming the crit remains a crit even if it is a Miss (as opposed to the case of natural 20 where it explicitly trades a 'crit that Missed' for a 'Hit that didn't crit').

There are two conditions for a normal crit: 1 - it must be a natural 20, and second - you must roll high enough to hit. As is (imperfectly) explained in the crit rules, there are means to crit on natural rolls other than 20. However, these do not remove the second requirement: you must hit.

In short: the situation you sketch is hypothetical since "crits" can only occur when your total attack roll is high enough to hit - i.e. when you hit.

The fact that you must roll high enough to hit isn't 100% clearly labeled as a prerequisite, since it's in the paragraph about a natural 20. However, the meaning is clear when considered in conjunction with the next sentence "Precision:". Also, the opening sentence of the Critical Hits section mentions that your total attack roll must be high enough.
You might argue specific-vs-general in that these new abilities, which don't reiterate all crit-related rules thus override these rules. Under that interpretation of specifc-vs-general, the game breaks down since many powers and feats fail to include combat section generic rules and would thus override them. Basically, the weapon mastery feats specifically mention (and thus override) which die rolls you can score a critical hit on. Anything else they don't mention (such as the fact that you maximize damage in the first place, or that you must roll high enough to hit) is not ignored merely because the feat doesn't mention it.

 

[DracoSuave]

Look.


I just want to point out that even -I- am tired of the Ardent Champion thread.


Seriously.


The best answer you're gonna get from us is going to be a complete lack of consensus. The best answer you're gonna get from anyone on this (unless they clarify it officially) is a complete lack of consensus.


So... um...


What seems the most fun? Do that. Yeah.

I won't berate you for making this thread and re-opening for the second time in two days a topic that sears me so. But I reserve the right to hate you.

He doesn't realize that we have -scars- from it. Battle wounds.