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Can you help me to determine what alignment is this?

Jon_Dahl

First Post
"I'm a knight and my Brotherhood always goes first. I love all my brothers but those that do not put brothers first always disappoint me. Some of my brothers go from battle to battle and war to war but they always let those greasy nobles - whom are NOT our brothers! - to come and rule the lands which WE have liberated! We don't get the merit we deserve.

We should rule the peasants because it's easier to protect them if we have the power. To tell you the truth the peasants are completely meaningless to me but I still pretend I care, even though I hate lying to my brothers. Sometimes lies are necessary but they should be avoided.

My dream is to seize all the power to my brotherhood and rule with an iron fist. I will say that I want to do this little by little without bloodshed, but if someone suggested that we kill all those in our path, I would not object. Well, it really depends on the circumstances...

There aren't many of those of my brothers that are truly loyal to the brotherhood. I tell them of my true intentions: My dreams of power and glory, the new dawn for our brotherhood.

Many of my officers are too blind to see that we should only concentrate on our Brotherhood. Their foolishness breaks my heart. I love them for they are my brothers, but their intentions are misguided."
 

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Sekhmet

First Post
Lawful Evil.
Might is Right.
Control everything so that everything works the way it should.
Obviously, my organisation is the only organisation that can accomplish these goals.
 


Jacob Marley

Adventurer
LE (LN) sounds about right to me. The only reason I'd say LE leaning LN is that his actions may be "gooder" than his intentions. Actual play may change my opinion.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Actually, I tend to see the L part of that as tending N.

He opens with a statement of strong loyalty to The Brotherhood, but then acknowledges that he has to lie to them some times, and then goes on to disparage others as not really loyal to the Brotherhood. Implies a few equally bad things of his superiors as well. So he's not really all that loyal to the Brotherhood, it's members or it's leaders.

He gives little but contempt for those above or below him in social/noble rank, so he's not that big an L with regards to society in general.

He's loyal to an ideal, but believes that he's the only one who really understands that ideal. And while he says that the Brotherhood should rule, he then goes on to explain that he should be the one ruling the Brotherhood.

While it falls towards the L side of things, the final focus is on himself, not society, the rules or leadership of the Brotherhood, or the laws of the land.
 

Jacob Marley

Adventurer
Whereas what I am mostly seeing from the OP's description is a focus on the Brotherhood, his devotion to it (although others appear to not hold that same conviction), and his desire to rule. That he is willing to take things methodically (i.e. "step by step") suggests to me a strong leaning toward the Lawful side of the equation.

In any event, it seems that we are picking out and placing emphasis on different parts of the OP. I am leaning LE (LN), you are leaning LE (NE), we're pretty much seeing the same general thing.
 

He puts others before himself, but only if he is close to them. This while lawful is also good in nature. To always put others before yourself, is something good.

'I'm a knight and my Brotherhood always goes first.'

Here he is shown to be loving, and critical of others who are not so kind, and at the same time, not zealous or overbearing in trying to controll those close to him

'
I love all my brothers but those that do not put brothers first always disappoint me.'

He dislikes those above him, certainly not nice, a loathing that would push someone towards evil, but no one likes their bosses, or giving someone something they worked hard for

'Some of my brothers go from battle to battle and war to war but they always let those greasy nobles - whom are NOT our brothers! - to come and rule the lands which WE have liberated! We don't get the merit we deserve.'

This is a roundabout justification for his goals. in this sentence here he wants power and wants it for the right reasons, while it could be good, I would say it is neutral due to the rest of what is written.

'We should rule the peasants because it's easier to protect them if we have the power.'

This is not good or evil, its apathetic and neutral by nature, but advances the idea of his lawfulness.

'To tell you the truth the peasants are completely meaningless to me but I still pretend I care, even though I hate lying to my brothers.'

He is lawful, but not bound fully by the rules, being secretive is slightly chaotic by nature, but an alignment is not a straight jacket and he is still lawful.

'Sometimes lies are necessary but they should be avoided.'

To seize all power is defiantly on the evil scale, it depends what he means by all power, since if he wants it on a global scale it is quite evil, if he wants to politically controll what is already 'rightfully' theirs it is neutral or even good, if he truly does it as it is easier to protect the peasents.

'My dream is to seize all the power to my brotherhood and rule with an iron fist.'

In D&D war is shakey grounds, and this here is a sentence about war. Wars are bad or worse, and only ever fought for a great goal, if he was willing to kill innocents who stood in his path, this would push him to the evil alignment, if on the other hand, he would kill the nobels guards and take controll violently, and for good cause, it could be justified quite easily as a neutral action, even performed by a good person.

'I will say that I want to do this little by little without bloodshed, but if someone suggested that we kill all those in our path, I would not object. Well, it really depends on the circumstances...'

These are the words of a zelous person, he is being an extremist here, and extremism can often be perceived as quite an evil thing. If he wants power just due to his brotherhoods rules, then I would argue he is evil, and should probably be played with a low wisdom score.

'There aren't many of those of my brothers that are truly loyal to the brotherhood. I tell them of my true intentions: My dreams of power and glory, the new dawn for our brotherhood.'

This is less like sticking to his rules and back to the idea of loving his brothers and wanting to protect those close to him, so it could be covered under lawful but I would call it good.

'Many of my officers are too blind to see that we should only concentrate on our Brotherhood.
Their foolishness breaks my heart. I love them for they are my brothers, but their intentions are misguided.'



After splitting the text up a bit and thinking about it part by part, I would cover him under lawful evil, if he wants power for the sake of power, and willing to mow down innocents and take away their freedom. Or if he is so willing to stick to his guidelines he will forget about his goals (in which case he should also have a low wisdom)

On the other hand, if he simply feels pushed around, that war is brewing, and that his brothers and other good honest men are being beaten down and pushed around by nobles, rising up and saving the poor and the downtrodden friends of his, that's much more into the Good territory.

If he is between the two, neutral. Since he wants to minimize the damage, you could always play him as neutral, and dip him into the evil alignment if he starts to harm innocents through character development. Which is probably what I would do.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Having played a Lawful Evil a few times I can tell you this guy feels very familiar.

When I play them, they always respect the system of power, presuming that there is one. They support the system because their own climb to power requires that there be such a system to rule.

If there is no system, they'll build one. If the system doesn't provide the leaders with the type or degree of power desired, then and only then will the LE consider fighting the system. Usually they'll try to work their way upwards within it though, modifying it as they progress.

This is what I'm seeing in this character. "The System" isn't just his Brotherhood. It's the social order, including the Nobles at the top and the peasants at the bottom. He supports the system, and "loves" the officers (though he doesn't respect them) because they are part of that system that he needs to establish his rule. He needs them. But his goal is to change that system into one that can rule, and into one that can itself be ruled "with an iron fist". He prefers a bloodless path, as in, to work his way up from within, but doesn't really care if the path towards his goal is a bloody one, so long as it gets him there.

He "loves" his brothers, but expects from them the same kind of blind loyalty he sees in himself. Ultimately, though, his loyalty is to himself.

Daniel Webster once wrote (I may be slightly off on the wording, so forgive me), "In every generation there are those that desire power. Though they promise to be good masters, they promise to be masters. And though they mean to rule wisely, they mean to rule."

That's this guy. He feigns support for the poor, the common man, but admits that he really doesn't care for them, other than their valuable place in society: Below him.

He feigns support for the officers, but clearly means to promote himself over them.

I rate him as LE, with a relatively weak L, purely because of his contempt for the "greasy" nobility, and his desire to essentially eliminate them from the system. If The Brotherhood is to rule all, then there's no room in the chain of command for an hereditary nobility. For his dream to work, they'd need to be eliminated, or neutralized. They wouldn't accept "neutralized" lightly.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Yes, he's Chaotic Evil.

To understand how you get there, you have to dispense with your feelings. This isn't about how you feel about him, but whether or not what he says conforms to absolute definitions. So, let's define those absolute definitions.

1) Good: Desires above all else the ability to create, heal, and build up. It seeks above all other things well-being and health. Believes evil to be a non-thing, merely the absence of good.
2) Evil: Desires above all else the ability to destroy, and to bend other things to its will by force. It seeks power before well-being and health. Believes good to be a non-thing, an illusion and a lie.
3) Chaos: Considers the good of the individual greater than the good of the group. Indeed, probably considers the group to be a non-thing, merely a way some people manipulate others to get what they want. Considers the internal self - the conscious - to be the source and seat of moral judgement and meaning.
4) Law: Considers the good of the group greater than the good of the individual. Indeed, probably considers the individual to be a non-thing, an illusion of separation brought about my ignorance or brokenness. Considers the source of all meaning and moral judgement to be external and residing in some higher power.

So, there are definitions. Where does our character fall in this spectrum? To answer this question we have to ask what is the essential nature of the character, and to answer that question we have to answer the question, "What will the character choose when push comes to shove and he finds himself in a hard place?" Using that question, we can strip away the characters pretences, personality, weak beliefs, convienent beliefs, affectations and so forth, and look only at the core alignment within. Where in the speech are the alignment cues, where the player reveals his most inner convictions?

It's easy to get distracted by this and think that declarations of loyalty to some group are strong and perfect predictions of lawfulness: "I'm a knight and my Brotherhood always goes first..." Not only can a chaotic feel loyalty to his friends, close friendships and intimacy are almost always the mark of chaotic society rather than lawful society. Lawfuls are bound by shared duties, and not by their feelings for people. There duty is more important than their feelings. When examine the knights claim that "my Brotherhood always goes first" in context, it's hard to see this knight as either honest with himself or the audience or bound to the order by a sense of duty or some larger purpose. In fact, he immediately says it himself: "I love all my brothers..." A lawful would consider his personal feelings about the order to be irrelevant, and his personal feelings not particularly worth sharing in comparison to declarations of his devotion to the cause or the requirements of his duty and honor.

And he immediately goes on in this vein, because the next thing he does is complain against the existing social order:

"Some of my brothers go from battle to battle and war to war but they always let those greasy nobles - whom are NOT our brothers! - to come and rule the lands which WE have liberated!"

Again, he is not focused on the lawful right of the nobles to rule, but on his feelings and personal frustrations. A lawful mind would consider those feelings shameful, and certainly would not be willing to share what he would consider dishonorable temptation to overturn the established order.

He continues....

"We should rule the peasants because it's easier to protect them if we have the power."

Now this is the first truly lawful statement he has made. He declares that motivated to a purpose - protecting larger society of which he is a part. But that declaration of purpose is immediately undermined by two more important things, and the first is his admission that he's not actually motivated to protect the peasants.

To tell you the truth the peasants are completely meaningless to me but I still pretend I care...

Once again, this character wants to share his feelings about things, and his honest when it comes down to it feelings are.... he doesn't care about the peasants. Do you think that when it comes time to choose between himself and the peasants, that he's going to choose society over the self? Does seem like a self-sacrificing sort of character? What about the larger society versus his close friends? Again, he seems to prize his private and personal relationships over his public duties.

My dream is to seize all the power to my brotherhood and rule with an iron fist

To me this is absolutely the strongest statement of alignment in the whole story. When we boil away the characters pretenses and affectations, ultimately he is motivated to claim personal power and rule over everything else. This is the ULTIMATE declaration chaotic evil intention. His dream is not to serve others, but to serve himself and force others to do his bidding. His dream is not to serve something larger than himself - a diety, a nation, an idea - but to obtain individual authority.

will say that I want to do this little by little without bloodshed, but if someone suggested that we kill all those in our path, I would not object.

Again, this is a strong statement of alignment. While the character would like to avoid bloodshed, when push to comes to shove, he's willing to kill everyone to get what he wants. He's stating what he really cares about and what he'll really choose when he's forced to choose.

There aren't many of those of my brothers that are truly loyal to the brotherhood.

Here I think we have a twisted and self-serving definition of 'loyalty'. He's actually forming an inner secret cabal that is primarily loyal to each other, and not to their lawful leaders. This loyalty isn't based on adherence to an external reviewable code - after all it's effectively a secret society with its own rules that it has made up for itself at this point - but based on interpersonal relationships. 'Loyalty' here is an affectation which is far removed from its plain meaning - obeying his superiors and doing his duty. He wants to have a coup. That's not loyalty; that's rebellion.

I tell them of my true intentions: My dreams of power and glory, the new dawn for our brotherhood.

'The dawn for our brotherhood' is again pretence. Notice just how more prominent personal pronouns are in that declaration: I, my intentions, my dreams.

What we have here is a CE individual who has inflitrated a lawful organization of some sort. Exactly what the alignment of the organization is hard to tell. The individual seems to me to be very intelligent, but probably has a fairly low wisdom. He doesn't really know his own mind and he's not particularly self-reflective. He may not even know his real alignment, and he may sincerely believe he is 'lawful' or even 'good' as he understands the term. But ultimately he is a decietful traitor, motivated by dreams of personal power and glory. Like most chaotics that aren't completely pure in their nature, he still has affection for those which he has a friendship or kinships, but its hard to believe that he won't, with a show of regret, kill any 'friend' that gets in his way when push comes to shove. Other members of his order may believe he is lawful, as he outwardly presents himself, and some may believe he's actually fanatical in his beliefs. A few probably suspect what really lurks in his heart, but might be afraid to speak out.

It's a complex and interesting character, but its by no means at all 'lawful evil'. Evil yes, but not lawful in the slightest degree.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
To tell you the truth, in my experience as a DM, I think that maybe 5-10% of American players could possibly pull off a lawful character well. America is so steeped in individualism and individuality and personal freedom, that most American players have a hard time even imagining what a lawful mind is like. And that is one of the reasons that do such a terrible hash of it when they actually try to protray one (lawful stupid is the most common result). If you don't know what the alignment of a character played by an American at the table is, guess chaotic. Chaotic nuetral is the single most common alignment in practice and usually on paper in the games I have run.

Conversely, those few players I've met that can pull off a lawful character usually find it impossible despite their best efforts to pull off a chaotic. Their desire to conform to externally reviewable codes, their unease at whim, their tendency to define how they should behave in terms of duties to other persons or ideas rather than inner desires always ends up thwarting them. They end up playing lawfuls that are duty bound to something other than the causes of the larger society, but still an external authority with a reviewable code of laws that governs them rather than an internal mutable and relative set of guidelines.
 
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