can you take 10 on a hide check?

[Dheran]

I disagree. With Disguise, you make a single check. The better you roll, the better your disguise, and that single check effectively sets the DC for the opposed Spot checks.

Not if you're following the rules:

The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can’t be sure how good the result is.

You don't get to make a Disguise roll at all -- the DM does this.

 

[TYPO5478]

Then I should be able to make Bluff checks while sitting at home, wait until I roll a really good one and then use that roll on the guards that I meet.

Are you using the Bluff skill while sitting at home? If so, then yes, you should absolutely make a Bluff check. But you don't get to make checks unless you're actually using the skill. That's what I'm saying. When you hide, you are using the Hide skill, so you should make a check. When someone tries to see the hidden you, they are using the Spot skill, so they should also make a check. That the rolls are opposed doesn't require them to happen at the same time.

Or, better yet, I should be able to simply use that same roll for every person I meet. Since I don't reroll for performing the same task, why should I have to reroll for bluffing different people if I use the same bluff?

You have to reroll because you're not performing the same task. You're telling two different lies. Or maybe the same lie to two different people. If you were telling the same lie to the same person, then yes, absolutely keep the original rolls. When you hide, you're not hiding in a different place for each person that might see you; you hide in one place, and as many people as can may attempt to see you. If you try to hide in a different spot later (or if you move and return to the same spot), reroll the check.

Or, could it be, that an opposed roll, which, by the rules requires two rolls, has to be done at the same time?

Seeing as how the rules don't require it, my answer would be no.

Like, say a grapple check for example.

Please don't misunderstand: I'm not claiming that opposed checks can't be simultaneous, just that they don't have to be. With a grapple check, it behooves you to oppose immediately because if you don't, your opponent wins.

It still seems that you couldn't "save up" a Hide check...

You're not saving up a Hide check. You're not rolling the check when you're planning to hide or when you think you might need to hide at some point in the future. You roll it when you hide. I really don't know how to say it any more clearly. You roll a check when you use a skill, not before, not after. If you're making a Hide check when someone tries to Spot you, it means you're using the Hide skill when someone tries to Spot you. And if they've already Spotted you, you're observed and can't Hide. On the other hand, if you Hide before you're Spotted, you roll the check when you Hide, and anyone looking for you can oppose it with Spot whenever they get a chance.

...by that logic you could just take 20 and do it over and over (when there is no penalty for failure) until you got the best result and use that.

For the last time, taking 10 has nothing to do with the potential for failure. That's taking 20 (and only taking 20).

 

[bodhi]

You don't get to make a Disguise roll at all -- the DM does this.

Fine. The player doesn't roll, the DM does. The rest of it still stands. The DM doesn't roll a Disguise check for each guard you pass.

You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people are making Spot checks against it.

Usually, an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter. If you casually meet many different creatures, each for a short time, check once per day or hour, using an average Spot modifier for the group.

So actually, there's a clear example of opposed checks where one check (Disguise) is not made simultaneously with the opposing check. Even if the initial Disguise and Spot checks are rolled together, the subsequent Spot checks come later. And, you don't reroll the check, unless you actually use skill again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

...by that logic you could just take 20 and do it over and over (when there is no penalty for failure) until you got the best result and use that.

For the last time, taking 10 has nothing to do with the potential for failure. That's taking 20 (and only taking 20).

... he said take 20.

-Hyp.

 

[Hussar]

You have to reroll because you're not performing the same task. You're telling two different lies. Or maybe the same lie to two different people.

Just like I'm trying to hide from two different people?

But, really, I have no problems with using the same roll for different people. That I've already said. My problem is that you cannot make the roll beforehand.

You are saying that I hide when I move behind the tree, regardless of observer. How do you determine success? How can you determine that I've successfully used the Hide skill? Do I hide every time I move behind a tree?

How is that different than sitting at home, making up lies and then using them later? I'm telling exactly the same lie. The listener can obviously oppose, that's fine, but, I'm telling the same lie. So, why can't I just take 20 (or roll until I get a 20) and then use that lie for, well, ever?

If I can hide without an opposed roll, then there is no reason why I cannot take 20. There is no failure without an opposed roll, thus, I should be able to take 20.

My arguement is that you cannot use the skill without making an opposed roll. Granted, some skills, like Disguise, can be done beforehand. However, disguise is actually a distinct action:

Action

Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work.

whereas hide is not a distinct action. You cannot Hide. You can move and try not to be seen, which, if there is no observer, will be automatically successful, but, you cannot just Hide like you can make a disguise.

In the ambush scenario, you would get some pretty hefty circumstance bonuses for what you've done, and, if you did it well enough, you could argue total concealment which obviates the need for Hide checks at all.

What you cannot do is sit down, roll hide checks until you get one you like, and then not move until someone comes along. Which is effectively what you are arguing. If I set up my ambush with an hour to spare (for example), I roll my Hide check and get a 2. I don't like that, so I move my blind 5 feet to the left and hide again. This time I get a 18. Great. I like that so I don't move. Gimme enough time and I will get a 20.

And you cannot take 20 on opposed checks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And you cannot take 20 on opposed checks.

Why can you not Take 20 on opposed checks, if there is no penalty for failure?

If I'm playing Hide and Seek with my friend, and he has hidden behind a tree, what prevents me from Taking 20, opposed by his initial Hide roll, on my Spot check?

-Hyp.

 

[Hussar]

Because there is a penalty for failure. If he spots you, you cannot hide again until you break LOS. Thus, you cannot take 20. You could move to one hidden spot, he either spots your or not, and then to another until such time as he cannot spot you, but, then again, he has to roll a new spot check each instance as well. So, there is no guarantee that you have a 20, just his Spot +1.

Unless, I suppose, you allowed the spotter to Take 20, but, then again, all that says is I've got his Spot +1, not my Hide at 20. If he's got a +1 Spot and takes 20, all I need is a hide score of 21 to hide. That's not the same as me taking 20.

You can only make opposed checks if you roll opposition. Since the opposition changes with each roll, you cannot take 20, since you are making a new test with each opposed roll. Taking 20 assumes you try multiple times against a static DC.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because there is a penalty for failure. If he spots you, you cannot hide again until you break LOS.

Read again - I'm the Spotter.

Unless, I suppose, you allowed the spotter to Take 20, but, then again, all that says is I've got his Spot +1, not my Hide at 20. If he's got a +1 Spot and takes 20, all I need is a hide score of 21 to hide. That's not the same as me taking 20.

You can only make opposed checks if you roll opposition. Since the opposition changes with each roll, you cannot take 20, since you are making a new test with each opposed roll. Taking 20 assumes you try multiple times against a static DC.

So are you saying the Spotter can Take 20 on an opposed check, or he can't Take 20 on an opposed check, while spending 2 minutes looking for a stationary hiding opponent?

-Hyp.

 

[TYPO5478]

... he said take 20.

Yes, but this discussion is about taking 10. It appeared that he was equating "saving up" a check when taking 10 in advance with taking 20 because "there is no penalty for failure." If that's not what you meant, evilbob, I apologize for the misinterpretation.

You are saying that I hide when I move behind the tree, regardless of observer. How do you determine success? How can you determine that I've successfully used the Hide skill?

You determine success when your check is opposed by someone else's Spot. Why is this hard? If someone comes along to Spot you, they oppose your Hide check. If no one comes along, you automatically succeed (as you noted) as normal for opposed checks not contested (although your Hide check is ultimately moot).

How is that different than sitting at home, making up lies and then using them later? I'm telling exactly the same lie. The listener can obviously oppose, that's fine, but, I'm telling the same lie. So, why can't I just take 20 (or roll until I get a 20) and then use that lie for, well, ever?

Because the rules say you can't.

A bluff requires interaction between you and the target. Creatures unaware of you cannot be bluffed.

 

[irdeggman]

How can I tell whether or not I can take 20 on a check, and what constitutes “failure” on a check?

Taking 20 is simply a time-saving short-cut that avoids requiring a player to roll and roll until he gets a 20 on a check that everyone knows he’ll simply retry until he either succeeds or is convinced he can’t.

Ultimately, whether or not you can take 20 relies on only three criteria:

• The check allows you to try again. Each skill has a “Try Again” entry that lists whether you can attempt the same task again. If you can’t retry the task, you can’t take 20 (since taking 20 involves retrying the task). You can’t retry a Decipher Script check, so taking 20 is out of the question.

• Failure does not carry an inherent penalty (that is, a consequence). If something bad happens when you fail a check, you can’t take 20, since the DM needs to know exactly when or how often failure occurs. When you’re halfway up a wall and fail a Climb check, you might fall and take damage. That’s an inherent consequence, so you can’t normally take 20 on Climb checks.

• You have available time equal to making the check 20 times. If you have only 1 minute until the walls of the room slide together and crush you, you obviously can’t take 20 on a Search check to find the hidden off switch (since that takes 20 rounds).

There’s no perfect list of which checks do or don’t allow taking 20. For example, you can retry Spot checks, and it doesn’t seem like a failed Spot check carries any inherent consequence. Does that mean you can take 20 on Spot checks when keeping watch for monsters sneaking up on your campsite?

Well, yes and no. If you stare at the same sight for 2 minutes, you can absolutely take 20 on a Spot check to get a really good look at it. But if an assassin is sneaking through the shadows toward you, he’s probably not there for that whole 2 minutes. Thus, you couldn’t take 20, since you don’t actually have available time equal to making the check 20 times against that enemy. You’d have to roll your Spot check normally (opposed by the assassin’s Hide check) to notice the enemy.

Similarly, if a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks. You can’t take 20 on a Use Rope check to tie someone up, since you don’t really know how successful you’ve been until that enemy tries to struggle free.

If you’re having trouble with the concept, try ignoring it and instead allow characters to retry failed skill checks until they roll 20. You’ll soon recognize what checks are appropriate for taking 20—they’re the ones during which everyone sits around bored while one player rolls and rolls and rolls. Imagine a game without the “take 20” rule:

• After defeating hordes of monsters, the PCs stand before a strong wooden door blocking entry to the treasure room. The break DC is 23, which the 20-Strength Regdar shouldn’t have too much trouble getting eventually. The DM knows that there’s nothing left in the dungeon to harm the characters, so time (and noise) isn’t an issue. However, everyone has to sit around and wait until Regdar’s player rolls an 18 or better on the d20.

• Once inside, the PCs discover a locked chest. Wary of a trap, Lidda’s player rolls a 16 on her Search check. She finds nothing, but that doesn’t allay her suspicion, so she wants to keep rolling her Search check until she gets a 20. (She might as well, since the party has plenty of time and nothing bad happens to her if she fails the Search check.) If she’s lucky, this takes only a few rolls, but we’ve all played with players who couldn’t roll a 20 with a hundred tries.

• After finally determining that the chest seems safe, Lidda now turns to the lock. Her first Open Lock check garners a d20 roll of 11, which fails to open the lock even with her prodigious +14 modifier. Again, the party has plenty of time, so she tries again but rolls a 6. The DM knows the DC 30 lock is well within Lidda’s ability to unlock, but has to wait until she rolls a 16 or better on the d20. Meanwhile, the rest of the players are wandering off to check what’s on TV.

In the Sage’s experience, over 90% of all “take 20” checks are made for one of the following four reasons. Even if you only limit yourself to these few examples, you’ll save valuable game time:

Strength checks to open doors
Listen checks at closed doors
Open Lock checks
Search checks

SRD:

Taking 20:When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

Originally I felt, like Hyp, that you should be able to take 20 on a hide check but after looking over the PHB rules and the FAQ I now understand why WotC says you can't.

Here is the crux.

When taking 20 you are not (per the rules) attempting to do it the "best you can". You are instead "retrying until you get it right". There is a difference between the two.

On opposed checks you don't know if you've succeeded or not until after the opposed check has been made, at that time for taking 20 you would normally just try again. In the case of ide, since the character has "spotted you" you can not attempt to hide again unless you can regain concealment or some other condition that allows you to retry to hide once spotted.

In the case of hide it is not that there is a "penalty for failure" it is that due to the fact that once you fail (against the opposed spot check) you are "spotted" and can no longer attempt to hide under the same conditions.

Now can you take 20 on a spot check?

The example in the FAQ is pretty good at explaining what is going on with that skill. Pretty much as long as you are looking at the same location you can retry - but it takes twenty times as long as the normal check does. So roughly 2 minutes of looking at the same location (5 ft square) continuously. During that 2 minutes the entire combat is likely to be resolved.