Can you teleport an unwilling, but unconscious, person with you?

[Voadam]

from the srd:

(Object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, etc.) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object gets the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can only be cast on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half its caster level.

So if unconscious people are treated as objects, they will not gain a saving throw unless they are magical or attended. Most people are not enchanted as magic items and I don't think having a buff spell would count. I'm not sure if their magical armor etc. would give them a save (if you treat items as part of the character). The other option to save your unconscious buddy from being teleported away would be to jump on him and grab him, thus he is attended, and resist the teleport, granting your buddy his own save or yours, whichever is better.

 

[Volefisk]

from the srd:

(Object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, etc.) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object gets the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can only be cast on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half its caster level.

So if unconscious people are treated as objects, they will not gain a saving throw unless they are magical or attended.

If unconscious people are treated as objects, you would be correct. But they aren't, and no one's made a supportable argument to the contrary.

If you really want the villain to teleport away with the fallen PC, just have 'em Charm their unconscious victim first!

<volefisk>

 

[Magus_Jerel]

If unconscious people are treated as objects, you would be correct. But they aren't, and no one's made a supportable argument to the contrary.

Actually - I MADE this argument back on page 3

Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom.

Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score, and vice versa.

If you are unconcious, you cannot percive your environment in any way - and therefore do NOT have a "wisdom score" with respect to that environment. In fact, you maintain your wisdom score - but are still an object due to your lack of ability to percieve.

Just because you HAVE a wisdom score, does NOT make you "not an object". See Animated Objects in the MM for case and point.

To phrase it in a logical sense

Lack of wisdom score -> object
object -> may or may not have a wisdom score
unconcious -> inability to percieve enviroment
inability to percieve environment -> object

Now - if you insist on the fact that "unwilling" is automatic for all creatures who are unconcious - the following are the consequences.

1. Contingency/teleport automatically fails

2. Attemting to cast a cure wounds or heal spell on a dying comrade means that the dying comrade must make a will save for the cure spell to work.

3. Subjects CANNOT choose to accept a spell while unconcious.

As 1, 2 and 3 are the case by empirical evidence - it would lead me to conclude that to remain cosistent with precedent; teleporting of unconcious persons occurs because they are considered objects at least for the purposes of resolving the teleport spell.

After all... they are a body whose "mental function" has ceased.

 

[Slander]

If you are unconcious, you cannot percive your environment in any way - and therefore do NOT have a "wisdom score" with respect to that environment. In fact, you maintain your wisdom score - but are still an object due to your lack of ability to percieve.

Just because you HAVE a wisdom score, does NOT make you "not an object". See Animated Objects in the MM for case and point.

Ok, Animated Objects are Tiny Constructs. Contructs are considered creatures, not objects. They retain some properties of objects, but while they are animated, they are creatures.


Now - if you insist on the fact that "unwilling" is automatic for all creatures who are unconcious - the following are the consequences.

1. Contingency/teleport automatically fails

No, teleport automatically transports the caster to the intended destination. Optionally, it can take additional willing creatures.

2. Attemting to cast a cure wounds or heal spell on a dying comrade means that the dying comrade must make a will save for the cure spell to work.

No. Cure spells read Save: Will Half (harmless). The Will Half portion only applies to undead. With harmless spells, the spell works unless the creature chooses to resist. Unconscious creatures cannot choose to resist a harmless spell in the same way they cannot choose to be a willing recipient of a Teleport spell.

"(Harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it wishes."


3. Subjects CANNOT choose to accept a spell while unconcious.

Correct, nor can they choose to resist harmless spells.

As 1, 2 and 3 are the case by empirical evidence - it would lead me to conclude that to remain cosistent with precedent; teleporting of unconcious persons occurs because they are considered objects at least for the purposes of resolving the teleport spell.

After all... they are a body whose "mental function" has ceased.

Only conscious perception has ceased, not mental functions altogether ... but this is getting onto scientific technicallities and definitions, which I generally don't like to work with when interpretting rules.



Slander

 

[Magus_Jerel]

1. Contingency/teleport automatically fails

No, teleport automatically transports the caster to the intended destination. Optionally, it can take additional willing creatures.

That would be the problem... except for the fact that you must be WILLING for all spells or unwilling for all spells while unconcious; being unable to tell which one was which. If you can be "neither willing nor unwilling" - the object rules cometh down; which to my amazement...

3. Subjects CANNOT choose to accept a spell while unconcious.

Correct, nor can they choose to resist harmless spells.

this is the "neither willing nor unwilling" argument that works due to the inherent nature of wisdom.

2. Attemting to cast a cure wounds or heal spell on a dying comrade means that the dying comrade must make a will save for the cure spell to work.

No. Cure spells read Save: Will Half (harmless). The Will Half portion only applies to undead. With harmless spells, the spell works unless the creature chooses to resist. Unconscious creatures cannot choose to resist a harmless spell in the same way they cannot choose to be a willing recipient of a Teleport spell.

"(Harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it wishes."

Actually, it is the "harmless" portion that only applies to undead. Again - you are unable to percieve what spell is being cast upon you. You MUST not only be able to (evidently) discern this spell - but must choose to resist it as well.

The former is inherrently impossible, and the latter could only occur if you were able to (while so unconcious) resist ALL spells cast upon your person. You can't do this.

The stratagem works; you can teleport the unconcious as if they were objects.

 

[Rowenstin]

My theory is that "willing" is a type of creature, like goblinoids and outsiders, left out in a early stage in the game´s developing.

They were "Those who can be Teleported", a powerful race of cat-like humanoids.

 

[Volefisk]

Actually - I MADE this argument back on page 3

Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom.

Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score, and vice versa.

If you are unconcious, you cannot percive your environment in any way - and therefore do NOT have a "wisdom score" with respect to that environment. In fact, you maintain your wisdom score - but are still an object due to your lack of ability to percieve.

Just because you HAVE a wisdom score, does NOT make you "not an object". See Animated Objects in the MM for case and point.

I beg to differ, but you are still making a classic logic error. As you have pointed out, the rules state that "any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom." You are assuming that this relationship is reversable. You are making a leap of logic to assume that 'any creature that cannot perceive its environment in any fashion has a Wisdom of zero.'

This position is no more supportable than if someone claimed 'any creature that cannot perceive its environment in any fashion has a Wisdom of 18' (because obviously they cannot have a 1; 18 is just as arbitrary a number as 0 in this instance).

If I told you that all words have at least one letter in them, could we logically infer that "hfuiwhfw" has no letters in it (because it is gibberish, rather than a word)? Of course not. Case in point Animated Objects in the MM. They are objects, not creatures, and yet they have Wisdom scores. Not only is your supposition not supported by logic, but also not by the rules themselves.

Being unable to perceive does not make you an object. Being able to perceive merely grants you at least 1 Wisdom.

And just to make my position clear, I support being able to teleport away unconscious creatures. I just don't think it's a position supported by the rules or the spell description.

<volefisk>

 

[noretoc]

Evil mage sits in the temple with the tied up virgin. Adventurers come in as the mage laughs. "Now she will be my sacrifice" He touches her on the shoulder and both teleport away. That sounds cool.

Evil mage sits in the temple with the tied up virgin. Adventurers come in as the mage laughs. "Now she will be my sacrifice" He touches her on the shoulder and he dissapears with the ropes and shackels. You hear a mystical "doh" That is lame. That answers it for me.

 

[jasper]

Help me scotty!

Ok kirk and his party are down on the planet. Blam mccoy is ko! Salt vampire about to lay some voodoo .
Kirk beam up mccoy

Every one happy. Good tactic .

Ok.
Blam mccoy is KO! Kruch Klingon.
Scotty beam mccoy into the lava pit.
no more mccoy.

every one happy. good tactic

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

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If you are unconcious, then you are not willing.

If you are not willing, then you are not being teleported.
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