Can't get my head around the Hide skill

[SWAT]

Over 6 years since the arrival of 3e, and I still don't completely get how to mechanically apply the Hide skill. For example:

- How often is it rolled when a character is moving?

- What if I'm moving through shadows (with a normal move of 30), but stop every 50 feet and wait a minute. How often do I roll Hide?

- If I'm being observed by person A, but not by person B, can I just use Hide against person A? (Logically yes, according ot the RAW, I have no idea).

- I can use Hide if I have cover. Makes sense. I assume I duck down or move behind the cover, and thus I can't be seen. But if that's all I have to do, why do I need Hide? Can't I just say "I duck behind the cover."

- Extreme case: I once had a player with about a +55 Hide bonus, and a move speed of 200 (don't ask). Using nothing but Hide, he wanted to walk into a noisy merchanthouse/cafe and steal all unattended items on the tables. He said that by never finishing his movement in open space, and hiding behind chairs, tables, and people, he could take everything he wanted because even with a Spot roll of 20, no one in there would be able to see him, even after they realized they're things were gone. I had no idea how to adjucate this situation. What would the proper way have been?

- I duck down behind a low wall during combat and Hide. There's nothing back there to hide me other than the low wall. An enemy walks behind the wall. Does he automatically see me, or does he have to roll Spot?

- Corollary to above question: I need cover or concealment to Hide, but do I need them to stay hidden?

- Finally, if I Hide during combat, am I treated as being invisible towards the next person I use a melee attack against? At what point, if any, would the target of my attack receive a Spot check?

Thanks for any help on this matter.

 

[blargney the second]

Yeah, I still have trouble with adjudicating that skill.

 

[Mistwell]

Great questions. I also have trouble figuring out this skill. And since my currently most-played character has a lot of ranks in hide and move silently, I sure would like the answers myself.

 

[phindar]

- How often is it rolled when a character is moving?

SRD: "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you." My group's take on this is you make your Hide check, and then as people come along they make Spots check trying to beat the DC set by your Hide check. So you'd just make the one Hide check. (Another interpretation would be to make opposed Hide/Spot rolls whenever someone has a chance of spotting you. As I recall this came up a little while ago in a post about taking 20 on Hide checks.)

- What if I'm moving through shadows (with a normal move of 30), but stop every 50 feet and wait a minute. How often do I roll Hide?

See above. In the case of an extended stalking, its GM's judgement when rechecks might be called for; like if you were sneaking along behind someone through the woods all day long. As a general rule of thumb, I would say rechecks would be called for whenever circumstances change.

- If I'm being observed by person A, but not by person B, can I just use Hide against person A? (Logically yes, according ot the RAW, I have no idea).

I would think so as well, but your effectiveness at hiding might be limited when Person B runs up and stabs you. Likewise, Person A might get a circumstance bonus when Person B yells, "He's right there behind that barrel!" But that's a GM judgement call.

- I can use Hide if I have cover. Makes sense. I assume I duck down or move behind the cover, and thus I can't be seen. But if that's all I have to do, why do I need Hide? Can't I just say "I duck behind the cover."

SRD:" Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." The Hide check comes into play when they walk around the cover and look for you again.*

- Extreme case: I once had a player with about a +55 Hide bonus, and a move speed of 200 (don't ask). Using nothing but Hide, he wanted to walk into a noisy merchanthouse/cafe and steal all unattended items on the tables. He said that by never finishing his movement in open space, and hiding behind chairs, tables, and people, he could take everything he wanted because even with a Spot roll of 20, no one in there would be able to see him, even after they realized they're things were gone. I had no idea how to adjucate this situation. What would the proper way have been?

Short answer, don't let them get a +55 Hide and a 200 move. Or if they do, don't worry about them pilfering crowded inn rooms, because thats the sort of thing those characters will do with impunity.

- I duck down behind a low wall during combat and Hide. There's nothing back there to hide me other than the low wall. An enemy walks behind the wall. Does he automatically see me, or does he have to roll Spot?

* He has to roll Spot. Though it is within the purview of the GM to apply circumstance bonuses or penalties, or even to say "There is nowhere to Hide in this area."

- Corollary to above question: I need cover or concealment to Hide, but do I need them to stay hidden?

No.

- Finally, if I Hide during combat, am I treated as being invisible towards the next person I use a melee attack against? At what point, if any, would the target of my attack receive a Spot check?[/i]

He'd get a Spot check when he first had a chance to see you. But if you were successful at hiding, your opponent would be flat-footed unless he had an ability that countered that, like Uncanny Dodge.

 

[frankthedm]

Over 6 years since the arrival of 3e, and I still don't completely get how to mechanically apply the Hide skill. For example:

- How often is it rolled when a character is moving?

Your hide roll is opposed whenever a foe might spot you.

- If I'm being observed by person A, but not by person B, can I just use Hide against person A? (Logically yes, according ot the RAW, I have no idea).

I'd think you'd automaticly fail against A.

- I can use Hide if I have cover. Makes sense. I assume I duck down or move behind the cover, and thus I can't be seen. But if that's all I have to do, why do I need Hide? Can't I just say "I duck behind the cover."

That would be taking full cover and if you kneel sit or lay down behind said cover it takes a move action to get back up.

- Extreme case: I once had a player with about a +55 Hide bonus, and a move speed of 200 (don't ask). Using nothing but Hide, he wanted to walk into a noisy merchanthouse/cafe and steal all unattended items on the tables. He said that by never finishing his movement in open space, and hiding behind chairs, tables, and people, he could take everything he wanted because even with a Spot roll of 20, no one in there would be able to see him, even after they realized they're things were gone. I had no idea how to adjucate this situation. What would the proper way have been?

He failed. If he used nothing but hide then he could not move silently.

And unless I know how he got a move speed of 200, I can't say much else for the situation.

- I duck down behind a low wall during combat and Hide. There's nothing back there to hide me other than the low wall. An enemy walks behind the wall. Does he automatically see me, or does he have to roll Spot?

He sees you. "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check."

- Corollary to above question: I need cover or concealment to Hide, but do I need them to stay hidden?

Why would you not? Hide checks are opposed at the moment you could be spotted.

- Finally, if I Hide during combat, am I treated as being invisible towards the next person I use a melee attack against? At what point, if any, would the target of my attack receive a Spot check?

The Core rules NEVER equate hiding with being invisible. Wotc {or at least their employees] has said in other places taking the -20 to the hide check to attack while doing so does give effective invisibility if the foe does not make the spot.

 

[3d6]

How often is it rolled when a character is moving?

I think you roll a Hide check with every action you take. There isn't any other way to apply the check modifiers that I can think of.

You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

What if I'm moving through shadows (with a normal move of 30), but stop every 50 feet and wait a minute. How often do I roll Hide?

Again, I think its every action you take.

If I'm being observed by person A, but not by person B, can I just use Hide against person A? (Logically yes, according ot the RAW, I have no idea).

"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide", so it looks like you can't, even if it does make sense.

I can use Hide if I have cover. Makes sense. I assume I duck down or move behind the cover, and thus I can't be seen. But if that's all I have to do, why do I need Hide? Can't I just say "I duck behind the cover."

Well, normally if you have cover, people can still see you (and you can see them). To be unseen using only cover, you either need total cover or the Hide skill.

Extreme case: I once had a player with about a +55 Hide bonus, and a move speed of 200 (don't ask). Using nothing but Hide, he wanted to walk into a noisy merchanthouse/cafe and steal all unattended items on the tables. He said that by never finishing his movement in open space, and hiding behind chairs, tables, and people, he could take everything he wanted because even with a Spot roll of 20, no one in there would be able to see him, even after they realized they're things were gone. I had no idea how to adjucate this situation. What would the proper way have been?

The skill says that "you need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check", but it doesn't say that you need cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can't hide behind people, however, as soft cover doesn't allow you to hide. In any event, I think he should have been able to do it. With a +55 Hide check, he's harder to see than someone who is invisible. People would notice their things being stolen, however (even if not immediately).

I duck down behind a low wall during combat and Hide. There's nothing back there to hide me other than the low wall. An enemy walks behind the wall. Does he automatically see me, or does he have to roll Spot?

Again, as far as the skill description is concerned, you only need cover or concealment to make a Hide check, not to hide, so it looks like he doesn't automatically see you. I think he would get a new Spot check when you take your next action.

Corollary to above question: I need cover or concealment to Hide, but do I need them to stay hidden?

Again, the rule doesn't say that you need cover or concealment to stay hidden, but because I think you need to make a new check with every action you take, I think this is written so that you can move from cover to cover without being seen. That is, if you were hiding behind a barrel, you could run across the empty floor to another barrel, and not be automatically seen.

Finally, if I Hide during combat, am I treated as being invisible towards the next person I use a melee attack against? At what point, if any, would the target of my attack receive a Spot check?

I don't think you'd be considered "invisible", as the definition of the term in D&D is "visually undetectable". A hiding character can be seen with a Spot check, so they're not visually undetectable.

I think the modifiers at the beginning of the skill description contradict the sniping rules, so I'm not sure on the second question. He either gets a Spot check when you make your Hide check as part of your (melee or ranged) attack, or he gets a Spot check when you take a move action to Hide after your (ranged) attack.

 

[Mistwell]

Wow Frank, you must think there is no point to hide. Your rulings result in never being able to hide. You cannot attempt a hide check when being observed, and you only attempt a hide check when being observed, and even if that impossible circular reasoning resulted in a hide attempt, you still don't appear to get the benefit of invisibility if you did hide (which means you get what benefit exactly?). Oh, and if someone hears you, but doesn't see you, you apparently still fail your hide check...

You need cover or concealment to hide. But since partial cover or partial concealment would result in you being observed (meaning you cannot attempt a hide check), you must have total cover or total concealment (which already means you cannot be seen, and you need not attempt a hide check). But the moment you have anything less that total cover or total concealment, you would lose all benefits of being hidden because you are now being observed again. So, if I read your answers correctly, there is no possible way for hide to benefit you in any way. Because as soon as you could be spotted, you are always spotted, because you are being observed, and you cannot hide when bening observed.

Frank, under what circumstances do you feel a hide check could result in something useful for the character?

 

[phindar]

It looks like making an attack automatically makes you visible (that's implied in the "sniping" section of the skill), that is, making an attack forces you to stop hiding.

True dat. However, for the purposes of that attack, the opponent who failed his Spot check would be considered unaware of you. I'm guessing now, but I think he'd be flat-footed towards the Hider until his next action, which really wouldn't matter unless he triggered an AoO.

- If I'm being observed by person A, but not by person B, can I just use Hide against person A? (Logically yes, according ot the RAW, I have no idea).

I'd think you'd automaticly fail against A.

I guess if you're being observed by Person A, but have partial cover or concealment you can attempt to hide from him. Person B is moot since if he can't see you, he isn't eligible for a Spot check no matter what you're doing. (I misread this question initially, thinking if you didn't have cover/concealment from A but did from B, could you use the Hide skill against B.)

 

[The Grackle]

- Extreme case: I once had a player with about a +55 Hide bonus, and a move speed of 200 (don't ask). Using nothing but Hide, he wanted to walk into a noisy merchanthouse/cafe and steal all unattended items on the tables. He said that by never finishing his movement in open space, and hiding behind chairs, tables, and people, he could take everything he wanted because even with a Spot roll of 20, no one in there would be able to see him, even after they realized they're things were gone. I had no idea how to adjucate this situation. What would the proper way have been?

Wouldn't he have to use an action to grab the stuff? It seems like he'd have to move, stop next to the stuff, then grab it. And would you even use combat rounds outside of combat?

 

[Rhun]

You cannot attempt a hide check when being observed

I agree with Frank that hide cannot be used if you are being observed. If you could, that would completely remove the usefulness of the Hide In Plain Sight ability.