D&D 4E Careful Shot vs Twin Strike....No Contest (4e spoilers)

[SableWyvern]

First "public" game reports said +4 to attack, dex mod to damage. Then, for the DDXP I think it was +4 to attack, no dex to damage. Now it's +2 and no dex to damage.

It's very weak. I'll be considering pumping it back to +4 and no stat on damage.

Ah. I must have read "the bonus used to be double what it is now" and mistakenly inferred "the bonus used to be double ability".

 

[Clawhound]

What I have not yet seen is this:

Twin Strike - Nearby

Careful Shot - Anyway within bow range

That is a HUGE difference. Careful shot can be effective across effects, across rough terrain, across OA's, and behind meatshields.

Unless I'm missing a basic fact, of course. This is all still new.

 

[SableWyvern]

What I have not yet seen is this:

Twin Strike - Nearby

Careful Shot - Anyway within bow range

That would be because those limitations don't apply.

Unless I'm missing a basic fact, of course. This is all still new.

Both powers can be used in melee and at range.

 

[Khaim]

What I have not yet seen is this:

Twin Strike - Nearby

Careful Shot - Anyway within bow range

That is a HUGE difference. Careful shot can be effective across effects, across rough terrain, across OA's, and behind meatshields.

Unless I'm missing a basic fact, of course. This is all still new.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Both can be used at range, with no restrictions whatsoever. In fact, twin strike can hit two creatures (instead of two attacks vs one creature), which is good for clearing minions. The two don't even have to be near each other!

 

[The Grackle]

Note that there are other problems with Ranger (and I assume other classes', as well) powers. For example, there's a level 1 Encounter power that allows you to shift several squares and make an attack that does 2W+stat damage, and a level 3 Encounter power that allows you to make an attack that does 2W+stat damage... with no other bonus. Both have the same attack type (Str/Dex vs AC) and both do exactly the same damage (2W+Str/Dex). Both only fire a single attack. But the level 1 power has the additional benefit of letting you shift several squares before or after the attack, and the level 3 power has nothing special.

Oh, actually, wait... the level 3 power can only be used on your Hunter's Quarry, too. So not only is it weaker, it's got more restrictive targetting, too.

It's not just an editing problem, either, because the level 1 power is recommended for the Archer Ranger path, which means WotC honestly thought that it should be level 1 and the other power should be level 3.

The powers in question are Evasive Strike vs Shadow Wasp Strike.

The only reason to ever take SWS is because you want a second encounter power that does 2W damage; if you didn't take Evasive Strike at level 1, you can still pick it up at level 3 instead of one of the level 3 Encounter powers.

Yeah, compare the ranger's "Weave through the Fray" vs. "Open the Range" utility powers.

Both are immediate interrupts triggered by an enemy moving adjacent to you. WttF lets you shift your Wis mod, OtR let's you shift 1 and then move your Wis Mod +1 and you can't end adj to the enemy. Pretty similar, but WttF seems way more useful to me.

Weave through the Fray is a level 6 encounter power and Open the Range is a level 10 daily. I don't get it.

 

[Zurai]

I'm not seeing that... from what I know so far (c'mon Monday!) Bow rangers seem to rule the roost as it stands.

(c.f. the thread about rangers vs warlocks)

There are far more damage bonuses and riders that can be applied to melee weapons than ranged weapons, and the top damage ability in the game is melee-only. Bow Rangers may not be a weak class, but melee rangers are king of the roost.

 

[Kraydak]

Note that there are other problems with Ranger (and I assume other classes', as well) powers. For example, there's a level 1 Encounter power that allows you to shift several squares and make an attack that does 2W+stat damage, and a level 3 Encounter power that allows you to make an attack that does 2W+stat damage... with no other bonus. Both have the same attack type (Str/Dex vs AC) and both do exactly the same damage (2W+Str/Dex). Both only fire a single attack. But the level 1 power has the additional benefit of letting you shift several squares before or after the attack, and the level 3 power has nothing special.

Oh, actually, wait... the level 3 power can only be used on your Hunter's Quarry, too. So not only is it weaker, it's got more restrictive targetting, too.

It's not just an editing problem, either, because the level 1 power is recommended for the Archer Ranger path, which means WotC honestly thought that it should be level 1 and the other power should be level 3.

The powers in question are Evasive Strike vs Shadow Wasp Strike.

The only reason to ever take SWS is because you want a second encounter power that does 2W damage; if you didn't take Evasive Strike at level 1, you can still pick it up at level 3 instead of one of the level 3 Encounter powers.

4e has a lot of non-upgrades. Note also that Shadow Wasp Strike is worse than Can and Run or Thundertusk Boar Strike in damage dealing *except* against foes with Resistance>your Str or Dex+weapon enhancement+weapon focus+similar (and even then the interaction with Crits and HQ can sink SWS). C&R and TBS both also have decent kickers and can be used against multiple targets...

The more classes I examine the powers of in detail, the less impressed I am with 4e's playtesting/editing. They may have claimed "no Dodges" as a design goal, but boy did they fail.

 

[Vendark]

4e has a lot of non-upgrades.

How many exactly? I know Shadow Wasp Strike and Dance of Steel have been identified. What are the others?

 

[Plane Sailing]

There are far more damage bonuses and riders that can be applied to melee weapons than ranged weapons, and the top damage ability in the game is melee-only. Bow Rangers may not be a weak class, but melee rangers are king of the roost.

I'll take your word on it for now, and come back to you when I've got the books myself

 

[Styracosaurus]

The more classes I examine the powers of in detail, the less impressed I am with 4e's playtesting/editing. They may have claimed "no Dodges" as a design goal, but boy did they fail.

That is frustrating.

But it is the pattern that I have seen with all gamesystems.

I look forward to the revisions.