Carrying capacity: The ruling currency?

[3catcircus]

I think the ability to take two actions in rapid succession (ie without the opponent having the opportunity to react to the first action before you can take the second) carries the potential to be very powerful in action. Let's powergame it (and this takes the matter to an absurd, if logical, extreme).

I'm a glass cannon. The opponent will kill my character with one blow. He's that powerful. I can do some decent damage, but I need two or three hits to really turn the tide. My teammates are tanks, and can tie the opponent down, but can't really hurt him, so they can only prolong the inevitable. My initiative is 14, including -3 from a medium load which I can eliminate by dropping a sack of rocks (carried for just such an occasion). The Big Bad's is 15.

Round 1: Init 15, Big Bad swings on one of the Tanks
Round 1: Init 14: drop sack of rocks; charge the Big Bad (since my bag of rocks is more than one move action away)
Round 2: Init 17; withdraw and pick up big bag of rocks
Round 2: Init 15: Big Bad can swing on one of my teammates, chase after me (and suck up attacks of opportunity from my teammates - I won't be within a single move action, so he can't attack unless he charges), or delay/ready until I come back. From here, I either:

(a) If Big Bad keeps swinging on my teammates, drop rocks at 14 to charge, then retreat at 17 next round. Wash, rinse, repeat.
(b) If Big Bad delays, the situation has reversed - since he never acts, my teammates eventually beat him down.
(c) If Big Bad charges, all my teammates use trips, bull rushes, etc. as their AoO to slow him down - once one succeeds, they use normal melee attacks to get some extra damage in

Accessing two actions with no retaliation seems potentially powerful to me.

The problem, though is you can't charge on round 1 and end up with an Init 17 on round 2 - the full-round action means you'll finish it at the same point in time in round 2, so you won't gain the benefit of lowering your encumbrance until round 3. Likewise, withdraw is also a full round action, and picking up that bag of rocks is a move action.

BB could chase you on round 2 and you'd be stuck going after him in initiative order. If he doesn't and continues beating on someone else, on round 3, you could charge him (going first), but then you'd have to wait until round 4 to withdraw, pick up the rocks on round 5, go later in initiative order on round 6 to drop the rocks and charge, go at the same (lower init) in round 7, and then go earlier in round 8 to wash, rinse, repeat. You are losing the chance to attack basically every other round by doing this instead of treating the house rule the way it is intended - to reward players who take a risk by dropping items they might need in the middle of combat/penalize players who choose to carry a ridiculous amount of gear into combat and expect to fight as well as someone who isn't so weighted down.

What inspired me was watching some documentary about airborne troops. They shuffle to the airplane like pregnant yaks and during landing, they can detach some of their gear to fall the last couple of feet on a lowering line, so that when they hit the ground, they have better agility and mobility. Likewise, regular infantry don't carry their duffels onto a battlefield. In fact, there is an interesting article on globalsecurity.org that pretty much lays out some recommended loadout configurations:

Fighting load = 39.6 lbs. - basically weapons, ammo, armor, map/compass/writing stick, first aid, and water.
Fighting light = 59 lbs. (worn plus assault pack) - add food, more ammo, some clothes, and some small gear.
Approach march = 72.9 lbs (worn plus ruck sack) - more clothes, more food/water, more small gear, tool kits
Everything = 95 lbs.

I'd equate this for D&D to:

Fighting load = weapons, armor, 1 load of ammo, spell components, 1 potion of cure wounds, waterskin, light source.
Fighting light = add food, another load of ammo, 1-2 small magic items (rod, potion, scroll) or alchemicals.
Approach march = add additional magic items (cloaks, boots, weapons, etc.) and other miscellaneous stuff.

Really - this means that you take only what you need immediately (within 1 round) during combat with an option to add additional stuff for specific scenarios, but the 12 potions of cure light wounds, goggles of minute seeing, and 14 volume matched-set spell books stay in the area of the dungeon that you've secured already.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I am still puzzled by how people can have problems with simple additions.
I guess its the same issue as for why diagonal movement was "simplified" in 4E...

Oh FFS. I have a degree in mathematics, I am a fellow of the Royal Statistical Society, and I program for a living. I do not have a problem with simple additions. What I have a problem with is something that's a tedious and fiddly waste of my time and doesn't, to me, add anything to the fun we have at the table.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I would be happy to track items by an encumbrance value, rather than stricly by weight - adding up more regular numbers is faster.
I definitely like the idea of penalising initiative for carrying too much. This would mean you really only track two things: when you're in combat, do your armor, weapon(s), shield, worn items and belt pouch items (limited please) weigh enough to restrict you - if yes, take some penalties on movement or whatever. Second, is the weight of your backpack enough to restrict you - if yes, take an initiative penalty at the start of combat to drop it. I would make your capacity outside of combat twice that inside combat, so effectively you get X amount of weight to wear and X amount to carry around on top when you're exploring, and if you want to take a penalty at the start of combat to not suffer in combat, you can choose to do so.

 

[Argyle King]

The groups I've played in don't track it too closely, but do keep an eye on it, and Handy Haversacks / Bags of Holding are usually a popular purchase once they become affordable.

I think the existence of such items is one reason why groups don't get in the habit of tracking encumbrance closely - once you get past a certain power level, it becomes effectively irrelevant, so it's only ever really important at low levels.



I'm not sure how this would be a particular limiting factor for wizards. Most of what they need to carry in order to function well isn't particularly heavy.

A good point, especially with that power level under discussion elsewhere and "hundreds of scrolls" being a recurring theme. That 7 STR wizard has a lot of trouble carrying his spellbook and some food and water if we apply the encumbrance rules. Carrying items may help in the long run, but haversacks also have limits. And those same "overpower" concerns often refer to spells like Rope Trick. OK, Mr. Wizard, now that you have made it up the rope, you open your haveersack and see an empty backpack. As it is in an extra dimensional space, the bag's own extra dimensional spaces are inaccessible. Since you can't get your spellbook out, how will you be replenishing your spells?

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Those Bags and Haversacks have capacity too. And some items don't make sense tucked away (a Move action to retrieve your crossbow bolt, for example, or spell components, is unhelpful, and your familiar wants his familiar carrier in THIS dimension, thank you!). For very low STR, even with the haversack there are challenges. Sticking to Light load means 33 lb at 10 STR - how many Arcanists dump STR lower than that (hint: the optimizers generally do!)?

My Witch just bought a haversack. But my Witch has a tent, a camp chair, a mess kit, a cooking pot, a bedroll, a cot, rations, and a waterskin when on the road (not to mention actual adventuring gear). Guess what? I still need my mule, since the haversack can't quite accommodate all that gear. Next up, a Bag of Holding (the lightest one weighs 15 lb - too much with gear I want on hand) to fill up with camp gear and toss in the Haversack (where the items will be inaccessible - no biggie). That's great...until I run out of space there.

Lucky I'm not a crafting witch. Carrying the tools to craft arm's and armor would add more weight.

I'm also building a cleric for another game. Scale Mail, Shield and Morning Star are pretty heavy. Now I can go to a Medium load with no penalties beyond the armor, but I'm not a high STR melee cleric, so it's still tight. Those haversacks are sure handy - but they pull some wealth away, and there are still weight issues.



Spellbooks add up fast, especially for the spellcaster who has to have every spell he can lay his hands on. Just those cantrips and starting L1 spells eat a good chunk of that 100 page spellbook. Spell component spell, likely a dagger or staff, and a crossbow. Clothes (I hope - especially if you dumped CHA ), food, water, camping gear, etc. although much of the latter can sit on a mule (or a warrior ) until you can afford a carrying item.

At low STR levels, moving up to a medium load can happen pretty quick, even if you're not the party pack mule (high STR warrior type) hauling out the treasure. My 1/2 Orc Barbarian can carry a selection of other party members, gear and all, but do you trust him with your possessions? Extra food and water, tent, bedroll - sure. Spellbooks? Maybe no so much?

Most of what I was going to respond with is already there.

Carrying redonkulous amounts of scrolls is something I see in a lot of discussions about wizards. It's very often used as a way to illustrate why the sorcerer's flexibility isn't very important. "Well, the wizard can just carry a scroll for every spell he doesn't have prepared."

How is the wizard carrying all this stuff? Even if he finds a way to do it, how long is it taking him to pull out the items he needs in combat?


I still do feel there is a different in power between casters and non-casters, but I believe the disparity is made somewhat smaller by enforcing some of the rules which are often overlooked or handwaved away.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's very often used as a way to illustrate why the sorcerer's flexibility isn't very important.

The sorceror's flexibility isn't very important because the sorceror isn't very flexible. They simply know too few spells and don't have a top line to match the wizard. (Seriously, they are half a spell level behind and when they are on the same level they only know one top level spell and two spells of one level lower).

 

[Argyle King]

The sorceror's flexibility isn't very important because the sorceror isn't very flexible. They simply know too few spells and don't have a top line to match the wizard. (Seriously, they are half a spell level behind and when they are on the same level they only know one top level spell and two spells of one level lower).

I agree with that in theory, but in actual play my experiences have been different. Back when I played 3rd Edition as my primary game, I often found that I had a lot of flexibility and there were far more times when the party wizard (one of my friends nearly always plays wizards) didn't have enough of a spell to get through a particular encounter. For me, I found that if I simply chose spells that were useful in a broad variety of situations, there was almost never a time when I wasn't able to do something. I also found that it was more important for me to look at how I could use my spells together in combination than it was for me to look at the effects of spells individually. Thirdly, it was also pretty nice being able to spontaneously cast epic level spells once the game got to that point.

It's also worth noting that Use Magic Device is based upon charisma.

All of that being said, I still do think there are a few things which don't make a whole lot of sense when it comes to how 3rd Edition sorcerers were designed. Supposedly -according to the fluff and how that fluff is portrayed via mechanics- sorcerers don't need to spend as much time studying magic, so they have more time to pick up other skills and abilities. I always felt it would benefit them to portray this by giving a choice between getting more skill points per level, a better HD, or choosing a cross class skill to gain as a class skill... or perhaps some other option.

In the little bit that I've played Pathfinder, I feel as though some of the bloodline benefits help the class greatly, but there are a few options which are pretty obviously better than the others, so that creates a different problem.

 

[N'raac]

The problem, though is you can't charge on round 1 and end up with an Init 17 on round 2 - the full-round action means you'll finish it at the same point in time in round 2, so you won't gain the benefit of lowering your encumbrance until round 3. Likewise, withdraw is also a full round action, and picking up that bag of rocks is a move action.

So you're interpreting every full round action as starting on my initiative and ending a round later? That's definitely the case for a spell that takes a full round to cast - you finish casting, and the spell takes effect, 1 round later, just before your next action. It's not the case for making multiple attacks or a charge, for example, both of which are also full round actions.

BB could chase you on round 2

Suffering an array of attacks of opportunity from my teammates, ideally Trips, Bull Rushes or other choices which halt his movement.

I clearly don't fully grasp the mechanics of your house rule. That said, they clearly permit me to manipulate my initiative order to gain the ability to take two actions in a row, between two actions of an opponent, an ability not offered anywhere by RAW, and one I perceive as having potential for abuse.

instead of treating the house rule the way it is intended - to reward players who take a risk by dropping items they might need in the middle of combat/penalize players who choose to carry a ridiculous amount of gear into combat and expect to fight as well as someone who isn't so weighted down.

I find the characters who need to drop gear to drop down an encumbrance category aren't dropping much of combat utility. They're generally dropping travel gear (tent, cot, bedroll, food, water, cookpot, mess kit, soap, etc.) or other items that they only use out of combat. Dropping armor isn't really an option. What combat-useful items (other than, say, the wizard's "Scroll Case of Every Spell in my Spellbook x 20") get dropped in your games?

Most simplistic example - Round 1, Enemy moves at 15, I drop my extra gear (assuming that's free or swift - I'll carry it so all I have to do is open my fist!) close and attack on 14, say with a Trip *. Then I get a full round action against him (full iterative attacks, or 1 attack and back out so he has to stand up, then move, next round) on 17. Two actions in a row.

I can also multiply my ability to take actions which typically attract Attacks of Opportunity - he only gets one, absent Combat Reflexes - although that's a bit more situational. In my example, he gets his AoO on my first Trip (unlikely I'm tripping without Improved, though), then I can trip, grapple, bull rush, whatever and he can't get a second AoO. If I'm a caster, I can cast in that accelerated action round without worry about AoO or defensive casting.

* Or does a move + standard action also count as my full round so I don't move up in init yet - if not, why is Move/Standard different from Full Round Action? If so, that makes the mechanics a bigger pain, plus I have to sacrifice a move action, at least, to move up in init - do I want to lose one action to make another happen a bit sooner?

Carrying redonkulous amounts of scrolls is something I see in a lot of discussions about wizards. It's very often used as a way to illustrate why the sorcerer's flexibility isn't very important. "Well, the wizard can just carry a scroll for every spell he doesn't have prepared."

How is the wizard carrying all this stuff? Even if he finds a way to do it, how long is it taking him to pull out the items he needs in combat?

Oh, everything fits in a haversack, of course. Or they're all the spells he doesn't really need in combat. [Citing the arguments, without comment on their merits.]

It's funny how the Wizard is vastly overpowered because of those scrolls, but a sorcerer or a rogue with good UMD isn't overpowered by going out and buying the exact same scroll library (minus the spells the sorcerer has, or the rogue won't use to replace his own abilities - ie many combat spells). Sure, the wizard can scribe his own (one a day) at half price once they're in his book, but rogues and sorcerers don't need to buy spell books. And doubling a price generally cited as inconsequential hardly seems that big a deal!

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Guys, with cyclical initiative, just apply a penalty when it's rolled and be done with it - you don't react as fast as everyone else and you'll be last each round, or whatever. You don't suddenly gain initiative in 3.X or PF when you cast Cat's Grace do you?

 

[Argyle King]

It's funny how the Wizard is vastly overpowered because of those scrolls, but a sorcerer or a rogue with good UMD isn't overpowered by going out and buying the exact same scroll library (minus the spells the sorcerer has, or the rogue won't use to replace his own abilities - ie many combat spells). Sure, the wizard can scribe his own (one a day) at half price once they're in his book, but rogues and sorcerers don't need to buy spell books. And doubling a price generally cited as inconsequential hardly seems that big a deal!

Personally, I'm someone who feels the sorcerer actually has areas in which they outperform a wizard, so no argument there. The nice thing about UMD is that you're not limited to spells which are on your spell list. With charisma as a primary stat, it's fairly easy for sorcerers (and bards -who have more skill points than sorcerers) to be good at both the arcane spells they inherently have and use items which allow them to mimic being a cleric, druid, or other spellcasting class.

 

[am181d]

I will say this: I think it's weird that D&D characters fight with their backpacks on. Soldiers in the military cover heavy packs all the time, but (correct me if I'm wrong!) they drop them when they enter a firefight. D&D characters should do that too.