Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[Apok]

So when people panic and scream OMG our wizards has a DC 100000+ Disintegrate, all I can say is re-examine the supplements you are using. A core rules (3e) 20th lvl wizard can really only get around DC 30 for their 9th lvl spells for which they have invested a huge portion of their feat expenditure and wealth to get. Compare this with the appropriate CR monster and you will note that it is not that great. However a wiz5/red wiz10/acm 5 can have upwards to up to around 50 DC for their 9th lvl spell. Now you tell me, is the core wizard the problem or the PrCs?

You, good sir, have hit upon the very heart of the matter in this instance. Good show. However, now that PrC's such as the Archmage and Red Wizard are now, technically, core material, the expectation is that players must take levels in these PrC's to keep up with the challenges presented to them.

I don't agree with this logic, but I'm afraid it may end up becoming the new standard. So, rather than fighting against the supplimental tide, WotC has decided to integrate the Ultimate DC Boosting Ability (Spellpower) into the new Core Ruleset. This, I belive, is how they plan to justify the nerfing of certain spells and feats.

 

[Jalkain]

Elder-Basilisk pretty much nailed it. Once you crunch the numbers you see these spells just don't live up to their respective spell levels. But I suppose us number crunchers are notoriously hard to please.

I did crunch the numbers, much as you guys did. Power Word, Stun was the first comparison that occured to me, due to the lack of save. And while the effects of PWS are greater, they only work on a single opponent, and don't last long. These are substantial penalties we are talking about, and they are made more statistically significant by the fact that they are often being applied to a group of opponents.

Reverse Gravity is an interesting comparison, but is more of a short-term 'knock 'em down and damage them' spell. The new Exhaustion spell would have more use in a prolonged combat. I think it might also be useful in ambush situations, both when springing them and when escaping from them.

Originally posted by Elder Basilisk
Had they knocked the first spell down to 3rd level and the second spell down to 5th, they would have been useful additions. As it is, the only way they'll be useful is if Wizards makes all the other spells suck as badly as these two.[B/]

I think that the absence of a save must make the weaker spell of the two at least one level higher than Slow. Especially if you subscribe to the view that 3.5E is making saves easier. So maybe they should be 4th and 6th. My impression is that they are no more than one level away from of the ideal, and it's tough to be any more precise than that, simply because we don't know how the new elements of 3.5E mesh together.

 

[WizarDru]

The penalties are only slightly less and it allows a will save. I don't think I'd trade four spell levels for the lack of a save.

Except that slow can be dispelled automatically with a haste spell, while I'm not sure how you counter someone who's exhausted, other than 1 hour's rest to become fatigued. They're instaneous, so they can't be dispelled, unlike slow. They're a Sor/Wiz spell, not a CLR spell, so comparing it to Recitation may not be the best comparison, per se. And Recitation is a very popular spell for the clerics in my game, so I'm not sure why there's a belief that it's only for NPCs.

The 5th level spell would be excellent to cast in an extreme temperature area, such as the burning heat of a volcano or frozen expanse of a mountain, and so on. Why? Because taking subdual damage from the elements causes you to be fatigued until all the subdual damage is removed.

 

[delkain]

Actually according to the SRD... Fatigue lasts for 8 hours... Exhaustion lasts for one hour and then you become fatigued.

So it pretty much messes up the day for an adventuring party.

Delkain

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I did crunch the numbers, much as you guys did. Power Word, Stun was the first comparison that occured to me, due to the lack of save. And while the effects of PWS are greater, they only work on a single opponent, and don't last long. These are substantial penalties we are talking about, and they are made more statistically significant by the fact that they are often being applied to a group of opponents.

Reverse Gravity is an interesting comparison, but is more of a short-term 'knock 'em down and damage them' spell. The new Exhaustion spell would have more use in a prolonged combat. I think it might also be useful in ambush situations, both when springing them and when escaping from them.

Originally posted by Elder Basilisk
Had they knocked the first spell down to 3rd level and the second spell down to 5th, they would have been useful additions. As it is, the only way they'll be useful is if Wizards makes all the other spells suck as badly as these two.[B/]

I think that the absence of a save must make the weaker spell of the two at least one level higher than Slow. Especially if you subscribe to the view that 3.5E is making saves easier. So maybe they should be 4th and 6th. My impression is that they are no more than one level away from of the ideal, and it's tough to be any more precise than that, simply because we don't know how the new elements of 3.5E mesh together.

The absense of a save is great, but slow is a lot more powerful, and scales better with levels. In fact the reduciton to a standard action makes slow amost better to cast at high elvels than it is to cast a low elvels where many don't get the extra attacks to make it worth it. Which is why I agree with E-B that fatigue is better placed at 3rd level. Exaustion is a fairly good spell and no save spells are so uncommon its hard to judge where it should be but its weak enough IMO that for a 7th level spell I'd rather just balst my enemies and with the huge HP most mosnters seem to have balsting is a weak tactic. Give me a double empowered fireball instead any day. And reverse gravity rocks this if facing non missile/flying foes. A big provision at these levels I admit, but undead/golems etc will be immune to fatigue based spells, and again I wouldn't be surprised to see fatigue curing/protecting spells and or items in 3.5 if they are putting in fatigue spells.

 

[Jalkain]

fatigue = minor penalty for 1 hour so not a big deal. Exauhstion is for a long time so is brutal vs the pcs but still weak enough that I have a hard time justiying it in anything but a trap. But even then I suspect the response wont be oh no where screwed it will be, exausted huh. Well crank out the mansion we're taking a nap, or memorize a near by spot lets teleport away and rest etc.

Mansions, magical or otherwise, are not standard party equipment at any level.


So in the narrow circumstances where 1. a enemy is willing to cast a weak spell in order to hamper the party later on even though that wasted spell may cost him/her his life I'll see it cast.

Half movement means he might very well escape with his life.

 

[Jalkain]

Exaustion is a fairly good spell and no save spells are so uncommon its hard to judge where it should be but its weak enough IMO that for a 7th level spell I'd rather just balst my enemies and with the huge HP most mosnters seem to have balsting is a weak tactic.
]

Blasting is a weak tactic for large HP monsters, so why do you prefer it? This way you increase the damage your allies are doing, and reduce the amount they take, and the net benefit increases with each round of combat.


undead/golems etc will be immune to fatigue based spells, and again I wouldn't be surprised to see fatigue curing/protecting spells and or items in 3.5 if they are putting in fatigue spells.

Good points, both of them. We'll have to see about the items, but that would obviously change things again. I'd say the new spells have enough positives not to dimiss them until more is known.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

They're a Sor/Wiz spell, not a CLR spell, so comparing it to Recitation may not be the best comparison, per se. And Recitation is a very popular spell for the clerics in my game, so I'm not sure why there's a belief that it's only for NPCs.

I realize that Recitation is a cleric spell and Waves of X are Sor/Wiz. One point of bringing this up was that most of the time Cleric and Wizard spells are about the same power at the same spell level (I know this is not always the case) and I was bringing up a similar spell to compare it to. I play a cleric right now and find it very effective as well. A second point is that if the cleric can burn a 4th level spell to achieve the same result I would prefer the Wizard to save his 7th level spell for something more powerful.

As for whether it is for PCs or NPCs it is just as useful durring encounters for both but it has the extra power of requiring PCs to rest after an encounter while NPCs will often be dead after the encounter. Its not that it is only for NPCs but it does hurt the PCs more.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Right. I can see how these would be useful for NPCs. No problem there. But I don't think that giving NPCs spells that can screw the PCs for hours after the NPCs in question are dead and gone but don't do much to save the NPCs' lives are good things. Sunder and Mordenkeinen's disjunction were already fodder for DM cheesiness; why add more similar mechanics.

The other problem is one that I see in a lot of the 3.5 revised spells: they seem to encourage mobility based tactics that are pretty boring. For instance, Waves of Fatigue to reduce the enemies' movement and take away their ability to charge, haste to increase yours, then just spring attack until they die. Or move and Manyshot. If they can't charge, they can't reach you; if they can't run, they probably can't get away. (Obviously these tactics won't work on creatures able to teleport, etc). To the extent that the 3.5e revisions open up new tactics to PCs and NPCs, so far they seem to be variants of the boring old zombie shooting gallery where PCs continually move back 30 feet each round and shoot and the zombies move forward thirty feet but never get to attack. When I'm the DM in such situations, I'm always tempted to say "OK, you win. Mark 25 arrows off all your character sheets and lets move on."

So, to the degree that 3.5e spells are useful, they seem likely to make the game less fun rather than more fun.

Except that slow can be dispelled automatically with a haste spell, while I'm not sure how you counter someone who's exhausted, other than 1 hour's rest to become fatigued. They're instaneous, so they can't be dispelled, unlike slow. They're a Sor/Wiz spell, not a CLR spell, so comparing it to Recitation may not be the best comparison, per se. And Recitation is a very popular spell for the clerics in my game, so I'm not sure why there's a belief that it's only for NPCs.

The 5th level spell would be excellent to cast in an extreme temperature area, such as the burning heat of a volcano or frozen expanse of a mountain, and so on. Why? Because taking subdual damage from the elements causes you to be fatigued until all the subdual damage is removed.

 

[Umbran]

However, now that PrC's such as the Archmage and Red Wizard are now, technically, core material, the expectation is that players must take levels in these PrC's to keep up with the challenges presented to them.

Huh? By that logic, no character under 20th level is viable, because the DM might throw the tarrasque at the party.

The players are never forced into particular option by what the DM might throw at them. There is no "must" in PC design. The DM is supposed to design appropriate encounters for the PCs, whatever the PCs are.

If the PCs aren't up to the challenge of an archmage, the DM shouldn't be throwing archmages at them. The challenges are designed for the PCs, not the other way around.