Casters vs Mundanes in your experience

[Neonchameleon]

@Neonchameleon
Not taking anything away from what you said:
Once 3.x bloated the feat trees, it became quite an effort to create a high level fighter and I would have thought the same with 4E if it had the same lifespan as 3.x and if DDI had not existed.
In 3.x you design to a concept just like 4E, and then select all the feat taxes initially, before choosing combat style feats. I didn't find it hard other than i never had software to assist me in this regard - and had to flip backwards and forwards through books and pdfs. Software makes a huge change that cannot be underestimated. The lifespan of 4E compared to 3.x should also not be ignored.
Furthermore, 4E has an additional complication of feats affecting certain powers - so once you have selected your powers and are going through the list of feats you need to keep that in mind. Given a few more years this could have gotten out of hand with more power-affecting feats. Level by level is fine, but creating a high level character - well that does take some effort in both editions.

The thing is that 4e is pretty much done as a game. There are precisely two books I want to see for 4e that aren't setting books (and I like the 4e setting books the way they are - 2 books and done). Those are the Unearthed Arcana equivalent, including, including Mass Combat, wilderness survival, assassination rules, and politics and running guilds. Also an epic-focussed monster manual. (You can probably get two books out of the UA).

4e already has as many feats as 3.X. It has an incredible spectrum of classes* (about the only thing missing is a Vancian Mage just for the hell of it), most of which work well. And there just isn't the driver for spell or prestige class bloat. I'm happy considering it a mature game.

Plus with the exception of the Martial Power 2 styles, all the feats that affect powers directly that I can think of are for affecting at will powers. Easy enough to find and low-ish interactions with the build. (Doesn't count feats that e.g. give a bonus to illusions).

* There were 25 before Essentials (and each class has between two and six subclasses plus powers customisation), of which I positively like 20 (I'm not happy with the psychic 3, the Runepriest is too fiddly, and the oAssassin is just weak). Since then we have a massively improved wizard**, the simple fighter(s), the absolute gem that is the Thief class, the simple ranger(s), the eAssassin, the simple elementalist Sorceror, the other two classes that make up the 3e Druid***, the Blackguard (and Cavalier****), the Vampire*****, and the Berserker. Oh, and the Binder (DIAF), the Skald (arguably enough of a bard variant).

** Orb wizards, staff wizards, and wand wizards are just boring compared to Illusionists, Evokers, Pyromancers, Nethermancers, et al.

*** Shapeshifter, pet-class healer, and controller caster.

**** Defining Paladins as the embodiment of a virtue and Blackguards as a vice is IMO a stroke of genius. Makes sense of the old LG Paladins while allowing other sorts. Much better fluff than the Paladin has ever had and separates it from the armoured hitty cleric.

***** Yes, the Vampire is a class in 4e. And this is a good way to handle Vampires whose main focus is being a vampire. (As it happens the Cleric class in OD&D was a direct response to the Vampire class). You can also handle vampires as a race (Vyrokola), a multiclass feat, and IIRC a theme.

Edit: I agree with pmerton (surprise!) on both points. First that 4e's feat bloat (it actually surpassed 3e IIRC) is a bad thing. And second that this is strictly a player-problem. DMs don't have to worry about what feats monsters have. Or what spells to prepare. PC creation time might be comparable without tools, but 4e NPC creation is a snap.

 

[Sadras]

I have it, but haven't used it yet. (I have some ideas about advancing it to upper Paragon to mix in with my own conversion of Against the Frost Giants on the Feywild.)

My PCs were heroic, but I threw in a Frost Giant as a wandering encounter monster outside the Cairn that took on both the PCs and some of the Winter King's undead minions they were fighting at the time. Fortunately they retreated into the safety of the Cairn and let the giant take care of the undead (as I had intended), he was only meant for fluff and to showcase the hostile environment around them. This entire encounter all took place over a frozen lake which was already starting to show cracks due to the weight and violent movements of the Frost Giant.
But good call on mixing those two modules.

The first sort of skill challenge I saw like that was in the Dungeon module called Heathen, and when I ran that recently my players did talk down the bad guy - a fallen paladin - rather than kill him. And then sent him home to safety on a flying Phantom Steed while they beat up on his armies.

Thanks, will check this out.

It wasn't quite the "caster's ego is a weakness" you were referring to, but it did link emotions to conflict resolution.

It's still great and after our discussion I believe I could work the Skill Challenge to be used to make a powerful caster "trip over himself."
It does require some skill by the DM to not overtly give the impression to the PCs that the foe can be defeated through a Skill Challenge, but rather let it happen naturally through roleplay - with secret dice on the side by letting the DM make all the skill check rolls/saving throws..etc

 

[Sadras]

The thing is that 4e is pretty much done as a game. There are precisely two books I want to see for 4e that aren't setting books (and I like the 4e setting books the way they are - 2 books and done). Those are the Unearthed Arcana equivalent, including, including Mass Combat, wilderness survival, assassination rules, and politics and running guilds. Also an epic-focussed monster manual. (You can probably get two books out of the UA)......I'm happy considering it a mature game.

I agree, it has reached maturity. The books you ask for are reasonable, and the Vancian Wizard would be a nice addition. It would certainly make me happy .
These days I prefer purchasing 4E tokens and maps, as I feel I could utilise those in any edition, plus they look really smart and are fun visually.
Although in my adventures I like to alternate, run encounters per 4E grids and then othertimes like OS without grids solely on the fuel of imagination.

Defining Paladins as the embodiment of a virtue and Blackguards as a vice is IMO a stroke of genius. Makes sense of the old LG Paladins while allowing other sorts.

Have to admit this feature of virtues should definitely follow into 5E, its a great compromising option.