Casting a Sleep spell behind a goblin?

[DrSpunj]

Howdy!

Last week our Halfling Wiz3 cast a Sleep spell. She centered the spell behind the goblin up front, who was actually standing just behind an open doorway.

We use Karinsdad's house rule of "target a hex and the center hex is a bonus, count the radius from there" for our games, so the 15' radius burst for sleep includes the target hex and then 3 hexes out in every direction.

Here's a graphical representation of the room, with goblin in the doorway, and two other goblins she's also trying to nail with the Sleep spell. The X is the hex she wants to target the Sleep spell in. It's not to scale so please realize if she had cast the Sleep spell on the goblin in front it would not have affected either goblin in back.
____
|......|
|..G...|
|....XG..........W
|..G...|
|......|

Our question was whether a Small-sized creature (the goblin) would block Line of Effect (according to the Aiming a Spell rules in the PHB, pgs 148-150) to the hex beyond it? Does the presence of the doorway even matter?

I wasn't sure so I made her roll a Spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level) for precise spellcasting (another one of our house rules that usually is only applied for your highest spell level, since she's Wiz3 that would be 2nd level spells) and we moved on. But a couple of us (more interested in the rules) took some time over the last few days to read the "Aiming a spell" section and talking about it. We can't really come to a firm conclusion.

Any help (especially with rules references) is appreciated. Also, would your answer be different if the goblins were Medium-sized creatures? Large?

Just curious.

Thanks,
DrSpunj

 

[Belares]

I am sure that you understand that the caster can be caught in thier own spells. If you or your party is in the "burst" area then they can be affected as well. Also that it goes from lowest level it can effect to highest.

I also dont think the "burst" can be effected by obstructions, unless it is magicial in nature. Mind you I am guessing here as I don't recall anything stating obstructions limit the area.

The use of having the caster make a spellcraft roll for precise point i think should not be used unless it is a long distance to judge. I think 0-50 feet is easy to guage but of course if he/she is far sighted then...hehe

 

[DrSpunj]

I am sure that you understand that the caster can be caught in thier own spells. If you or your party is in the "burst" area then they can be affected as well. Also that it goes from lowest level it can effect to highest.

I also dont think the "burst" can be effected by obstructions, unless it is magicial in nature. Mind you I am guessing here as I don't recall anything stating obstructions limit the area.

The use of having the caster make a spellcraft roll for precise point i think should not be used unless it is a long distance to judge. I think 0-50 feet is easy to guage but of course if he/she is far sighted then...hehe

Maybe I wasn't clear up above. My question relates more to whether someone can cast a spell BEHIND a creature. In the PHB on pg 150 under Line of Effect it says "A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect." Now, do you consider a goblin between you and your target hex a "blocking" object or not? If the size of the goblin (small) makes a difference to you, how would a medium or large creature change your answer? Does the doorway affect your answer?

Thanks.

 

[hong]

I wasn't sure so I made her roll a Spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level) for precise spellcasting (another one of our house rules that usually is only applied for your highest spell level, since she's Wiz3 that would be 2nd level spells) and we moved on. But a couple of us (more interested in the rules) took some time over the last few days to read the "Aiming a spell" section and talking about it. We can't really come to a firm conclusion.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. With a few exceptions (eg the gelatinous cube), a creature doesn't take up the entire square it's in. If there's a guy out there who's really 5'x5', I'd like to meet him... on second thoughts, maybe I don't.

I would have used a ranged touch attack against AC 9 (10 -5 for immobile target, +4 for cover), instead of a Spellcraft check. However, the principle is the same.

 

[Caliban]

Our question was whether a Small-sized creature (the goblin) would block Line of Effect (according to the Aiming a Spell rules in the PHB, pgs 148-150) to the hex beyond it? Does the presence of the doorway even matter?

It's presence doesn't even matter.

Any help (especially with rules references) is appreciated. Also, would your answer be different if the goblins were Medium-sized creatures? Large?

The size of the creature wouldn't matter, unless it is a creature that completely fills the square it's in (such as a gelatinous cube).

Line of Effect is only blocked by a solid barrier. As long as there is 1 square foot gap on the side the square that the effect goes through, it won't block line of effect. Even if there is an ogre or troll blocking the doorway, there's still a foot of space around it.

 

[Uller]

From the SRD under Line of Effect:

"An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect."

I would say a single goblin blocks line of effect _less_ than a solid wall with a 1 sq ft hole in it. I generally don't have enemies(and never friends) block like of effect unless the caster is trying to cast a specific target directly behind an enemy. So if the wizard was trying to directly target another goblin that is directly behind the first, then I might say LOE is blocked(edit: probably only if the target is actually trying to hide behind the guy in front of him). But a 5'X5' square is a rather large area and all the caster has to be able to do is see it at time of casting...have one of your friends stand 30' in front of you. Can you see the floor 5' past him? Then you can target it with a spell.

 

[kreynolds]

have one of your friends stand 30' in front of you. Can you see the floor 5' past him? Then you can target it with a spell.

In my experience, you can always see the floor behind someone. Nobody has legs that "thick".

 

[Belares]

Maybe I wasn't clear up above. My question relates more to whether someone can cast a spell BEHIND a creature.

I am sorry I meant to address that as it was the main point, but was interupted and had to jump off real quick.

Yes you can cast on the other side of creatures as well as to the side up or even in some cases down. The thing is that you have to be ABLE to see where you put the spell. You cant cast somewhere you cant see. Of course if you have x-ray vision you could see the point behind a door but the spell still cant be cast there. Lol I think.

The size of the creature should not matter unless it blocks your view entirely and you cannot gauge where to accuractily put the spell, but I think that i remember you can say I want to put said spell 30' from where i stand straight ahead and that it can do that. I am sure someone will tell me if that is correct. This is contradicting what I said above a bit but is a hill giant a door or a wall?

 

[Sigma]

A related question: can tower shields block LOE? So, if in this example the goblin were hiding behind a tower shield, could he or the space behind him be targetted by the spell?

 

[DrSpunj]

Okay...

Good. Thanks for all the replies. This is pretty much what we came up with but I'm glad to see we didn't miss something obvious or a pertinent Sage advice or ruling.

I was hoping for something straightforward like this. I probably would've changed it if we had to compare the size of the creature to the size of the door and make some judgement call about how much "free space" there was in each instance to determine Line of Effect.

On a related note, Belares brings up a side question. Line of Sight and Line of Effect are often the same, but the PHB specifically states you can cast into a specified number of feet away from you (say 40') into a darkened or fog-shrouded room or area (where you may have line of effect, but unless you can see into the dark/fog not line of sight). If there was a gelatinous cube (since that's everyone's favorite block creature) at 35', would you rule that the spell failed (since line of effect was blocked 5' before its intended target) or the spell takes effect centered on the gelatinous cube. Fireball has specific text to designate that it detonates early, but the general Aiming a Spell rules sound more like other spells would simply fail.

Do you agree that this is what the rules state?

If so, do you agree with them? would you house rule it differently?

Thanks again,
DrSpunj