Casting Defensively a bit much?

[0bsolete]

In the few years I've been GM'ing I've only occasionally had to deal with the issue of casting in combat. My players are generally resourceful enough to keep the wizard or cleric out of the fight and when it comes time to get closer, they just roll and hope to deal with the damage. To be completely honest, while we had all heard of casting defensively we had never looked into it much.

Last session we got a new player who made a wizard who, much to the groups amazement, rushed into the fight just behind the fighter and started casting. More specifically casting defensively. I quickly thumbed through the pages and read it, and it surprised me how easy it was to take a large sized greatclub to the skull and not loose a spell just because you were looking around you. I let the player do it, but I honestly think this seems to be a bit overpowered. It seems like, just by casting defensively, a wizard can waltz right up into the heat of battle, take whatever damage they care to take, and still pull off a spell with a concentration check that, especially at later levels, really isn't all that difficult. Maybe I'm a bit old fasioned, but it seems to me like taking a hit from a frost giant should cause enough distraction to interrupt your spell. And at least should be mroe difficult than casting defensively and getting hit by a pixie with a stick.

What am I missing here?

 

[Ilium]

You are missing what Casting Defensively does, I think. As I understand it, Casting Defensively just keeps you from provoking an Attack of Opportunity. If an enemy chooses to swing at you and hits (while you're casting) you still have to make a separate Concentration check.

For spells with a 1 Standard Action casting time, this isn't an issue. It's your turn, you cast, spell's all done. But for longer casting times or (as is more likely) a smart enemy who Readies an action to whack you when you start casting, Casting Defensively doesn't help at all.

 

[DarkJester]

If the spellcaster wants to get into melee I'd let him. He doesn't have the hit points to last any length of time up there. They tend to go splat fairly quickly once the enemy realizes what they are.

After a while, concentration starts to outstrip the DC for casting on the defensive and so any decent spellcaster stops provoking. I don't really see a problem with that though.

 

[Piratecat]

The spellcasters in my game have concentration checks high enough that they're always casting defensively, even if no one is near them. It saves forgetfulness during combat. It makes me a little bit sad every time I want to hit them with an AoO, but them's the breaks.

 

[sammy]

Casting defensively is only if they are dumb enough to rush in. The momentt he baddies know what they are, the pc spellcaster is now a HUGE target. Defensively or not, your monsters/bad guys should look to hit him/her first, because you never know what they may be able to do. As a DM, I know casting defensively helps the PCs, but it doesn't help if the spellcaster is wacked enough for splatness.

Down and bleeding spellcasters don't cast spells.

 

[0bsolete]

Thanks. That cleared up a bit of confusion, but has left another question in its place. Does that even make sense? The problem I see with casting defensively is that there is no real cost to it. At lower levels it is a gamble. A fair chance of loosing the spell but you don't have to worry about the AoO. The higher the level goes though, and the farther along the character gets, the chance drastically decreases until it basically becomes non-existent or borderline so. Either way, every round they get a free prevention of an AoO for no cost which, to me at least, seems to be a bit cheap.

A note, most of my games in my group end up going past level 15 at least so that is a concern for us.

 

[DarkJester]

Well, the cost is spending skills points in concentration. It's never been that big of an issue in my games. As I said, spellcasters who ended up in melee never lasted long, regardless on whether or not they were casting defensively.

 

[Voadam]

Thanks. That cleared up a bit of confusion, but has left another question in its place. Does that even make sense? The problem I see with casting defensively is that there is no real cost to it. At lower levels it is a gamble. A fair chance of loosing the spell but you don't have to worry about the AoO. The higher the level goes though, and the farther along the character gets, the chance drastically decreases until it basically becomes non-existent or borderline so. Either way, every round they get a free prevention of an AoO for no cost which, to me at least, seems to be a bit cheap.

A note, most of my games in my group end up going past level 15 at least so that is a concern for us.

I play in a 17th level game and just handed off the reigns in a co-DMd one when the party was 16th level.

It is just something high level spellcasters can do automatically, cast without provoking AoOs.

The effect for the game is removing the roll and consideration of spellcasting AoOs for high level games. There are enough mechanical complications at high level play that I find this a welcom simplification.

As for making sense it has the effect of making casting defensively risky at low levels for spellcasters but easier as they gain levels until they master it. Works fine conceptually for me.

 

[Voadam]

The spellcasters in my game have concentration checks high enough that they're always casting defensively, even if no one is near them. It saves forgetfulness during combat. It makes me a little bit sad every time I want to hit them with an AoO, but them's the breaks.

Cheer up PC, you can still smack your PCs on the NPCs turn. Or ready an action to interrupt their spellcasting

 

[skelso]

Does that even make sense? The problem I see with casting defensively is that there is no real cost to it. At lower levels it is a gamble. A fair chance of loosing the spell but you don't have to worry about the AoO. The higher the level goes though, and the farther along the character gets, the chance drastically decreases until it basically becomes non-existent or borderline so. Either way, every round they get a free prevention of an AoO for no cost which, to me at least, seems to be a bit cheap.

A note, most of my games in my group end up going past level 15 at least so that is a concern for us.

It does make sense, though. The wizard won't draw an AoO for attempting to hit someone with a quarterstaff because he's concentrating on the fight. Casting a spell draws an AoO because it's assumed he's thinking more about the spell he's casting than the fight he's in the middle of. A high Concentration score indicates the character is good at concentrating on two things at once.

The other thing is, barring a tremendous Constitution score or the expenditure of feats, there will usually be some risk associated with casting defensively. Take the example of a Wizard with a Constitution of 12 and max ranks in Concentration at every level 1-20. Look at the DC to cast his highest level of spells each time he gains a new level of spells.

Listed in order of Spell level, followed by the Concentration DC, the minimum Wizard level to cast the spell, then the Wizard's check result at the level given the above conditions:

1st - DC 16 - Wizard 1 check = +5 (50% success rate)
2nd - DC 17 - Wizard 3 check = +7 (55% success rate)
3rd - DC 18 - Wizard 5 check = +9 (60% success rate)
4th - DC 19 - Wizard 7 check = +11 (65% success rate)
5th - DC 20 - Wizard 9 check = +13 (70% success rate)
6th - DC 21 - Wizard 11 check = +15 (75% success rate)
7th - DC 22 - Wizard 13 check = +17 (80% success rate)
8th - DC 23 - Wizard 15 check = +19 (85% success rate)
9th - DC 24 - Wizard 17 check = +21 (90% success rate)
Wizard 19 check = +23 (First time this wizard is assured of succeeding at Casting Defensively when casting his highest level of spells.)

Of course taking Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration) would make assured success occur much sooner as would some kind of Constitution increasing magic item, but even then Success is not terribly likely until much later in the game. If you are going into a tough fight, even the 15th level Wizard's 85% success rate seems like a big gamble if you are really counting on a spell to work to save the party's bacon.