Castle Zagyg - The Upper Works (review)

[Philotomy Jurament]

Bumping my own question... I'm really wondering if it's just a matter of converting coins or if I will have to reassess completely the treasure in the adventure.

From the Mouths of Madness book:

[The 1 gp = 50 sp = 500 cp rate of]...exchange is a deviation from the system originally used in play, where 1 gold coin was worth 10 times that of 1 silver coin. If you choose to utilize the original exchange, we suggest you increase the amount of gold discovered in the course of adventuring to as much as x5. You will also need to assign higher gp values to special items such as jewelry, gems, magic items, and so on.

Note that only gold needs to be increased (not silver or copper). Basically, if you multiply gold coins by 5, you'll have the d20 standard ratio: 5 gp = 50 sp = 500 cp, or 1:10:100. In addition to coins, anything with a value listed in gp (e.g. jewelry) should have its value multiplied by 5, too.

 

[Nikosandros]

Note that only gold needs to be increased (not silver or copper). Basically, if you multiply gold coins by 5, you'll have the d20 standard ratio: 5 gp = 50 sp = 500 cp, or 1:10:100. In addition to coins, anything with a value listed in gp (e.g. jewelry) should have its value multiplied by 5, too.

Well, in AD&D 1e it is actually 1 gp = 20 sp, but that's not as much of a big deal...

 

[Nikosandros]

A few item costs in Yggsburgh (adjusted after the initial misprint):
Battleaxe = 2 gp
Large Shield = 1.5 gp
Leather Armour = 2 gp
Chainmail = 50 gp
Full plate = 100 gp
Composite Long bow = 10 gp
Flail = 0.5 gp
Hand Crossbow = 1.1 gp
Mace = 1 gp
Long sword = 168 gp
Two-handed sword = 200 gp

Talk about wacky sword prices!

Wow! Maybe the idea was to cast the sword as a knight only weapon, but still...

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Well, in AD&D 1e it is actually 1 gp = 20 sp, but that's not as much of a big deal...

Yeah, if you want AD&D ratios, you'd need to multiple gold by 5, silver by 2, and copper by 2. (When the CZ text talks about the "original" exchange rate of 1:10 between silver and gold, its talking about the original D&D exchange rate, which was 1 gp = 10 sp = 50 cp.)

Sword (and dagger) prices in LA are very high, which is why they're also high in Yggsburgh. Consider that 1 Yggsburgh gp has the purchasing power of about $500, and you see that a greatsword costs around $200,000.00, in our terms. Also note that this price is from "Elite Arms & Armor," which sells weapons and armor of the highest quality (such weapons might be considered "expert" or "masterwork" and even be adorned with gems and such). The LA price for an average sword ("sword, average, crude, cutting and thrusting") is $2000, which translates to 4 Yggsburgh gp.

(In my OD&D game, I'm using 1 gp = 10 sp = 50 cp, where 1 gp = $100, 1 sp = $10, and 1 cp = $2. I also have a half copper for a "$1" coin.)

 

[MerricB]

Also note that this price is from "Elite Arms & Armor," which sells weapons and armor of the highest quality (such weapons might be considered "expert" or "masterwork" and even be adorned with gems and such).

Unfortunately, there are no shops that sell weapons of average quality with lesser prices. When you look at the other shops in Yggsburgh... oops, exactly the same prices!

And such an explanation ignores the fact that everything but swords is relatively cheap. Aren't they finely made as well?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Unfortunately, there are no shops that sell weapons of average quality with lesser prices.

There are in my Yggsburgh.

I wasn't trying to defend the price lists. Personally, I think that swords are over-priced in both LA and Yggsburgh. However, I chalk it up to different visions. Yggsburgh (and also the fantasy society described in Gary's Living Fantasy) has a renaissance + magic "wiz-o-phone" feel, and I tend to prefer a more Leiber/Howard swords-n-sorcery type of feel. I think Yggsburgh assumes swords are noble weapons, not a common weapon at all.

Nevertheless, within the scope of Gary's vision and the price structure he uses, I wanted to point out that there's plenty of room for lower priced swords. Thus, the example of the "average" sword price from LA. Even if an average sword doesn't appear on the published Yggsburgh price-lists, it still fits the economic scale and structure Gary was using, so it shouldn't be a big deal or disrupting to insert it.

And such an explanation ignores the fact that everything but swords is relatively cheap. Aren't they finely made as well?

I think that swords in CZ have a much larger range of quality (and probably adornment) than other weapons like maces and spears and such. I think a mace from Elite Arms & Armor is a good quality mace, but not anything special. A sword from Elite Arms & Armor, on the other hand, is a noble weapon, far above the "average" sword you might find in the hands of a brigand or pirate.

 

[Melan]

I think in his later products, EGG thought too much about economics and society and not enough about adventure.

Proof: Yggsburgh.

 

[T. Foster]

I think in his later products, EGG thought too much about economics and society and not enough about adventure.

Proof: Yggsburgh.

Absolutely, which is why I take with a large grain of salt his claims that the version of Greyhawk Castle presented in Castle Zagyg is "better" than the version(s) that became legendary by hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people adventuring through it from the 70s to the 2000s (note: the last D&D game Gary ever played in (according to Gail Gygax) was at TLG's Winter's Dark Con (Jan. 12-13, 2008), running the "convention version" of Greyhawk Castle, which was based on the 70s-vintage notes and maps and bears very little resemblance to the published version).

The fact that this set spends 160 of its 200 pages detailing areas which, by Gary's own admission, weren't deemed interesting enough to explore by the original campaign participants and therefore had to be completely newly-written for this product, remains troubling (which isn't to say that those 160 pages aren't filled with very good stuff -- by all accounts they are -- but is anyone (other than, apparently, Gary himself) really ready to argue that these 160 pages of all-new material are actually better or more desirable than, say, 4 or 5 more levels of the actual legendary dungeon would've been?).

 

[Nikosandros]

T. Foster, I agree with you. I still remember the discussions on DF some time ago... Gary was less than kind on those of us who wished to see the "original" caste see print. Many others then chimed in to explain that since the castle was modified every time it was run, getting a full-scale rewrite was only natural...

However, this version is all we can get and, by many accounts, it is still very good material. So I'll be grateful for that...

 

[howandwhy99]

Still insanely jealous of MerricB and others for having this. It sounds awesome. Thanks for starting the thread.

Why have you forsaken me, Postal Service!!!