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Castles and Crusades (NDA is lifted - ask questions, get answers)

nsruf

First Post
I have one rather technical question: saving vs. spells seems much easier at higher levels than in 3E, where saves progress at +1/2 levels or +1/3 levels. Whereas in C&C, you always add your entire level, correct? While the difficulty of spell saves is not based on caster level but on spell level, which is approx. 1/2 caster level. This seems to be a break from the C&C paradigm that the difficulty modifier for a task should be about equal to the PC's level.

Example*: let's take a 9th level rogue with Dex 16 saving vs. cone of cold (5th level wizard spell, caster level 9). The rogue has to beat a 12 (Dex is prime) + 5 (caster level) = 17 on d20 +9 (level) +2 (dex) = d20 +11. He needs a 6+ to save. Most other tasks that are considered "appropriate" for the rogue would have a TN of 12+9=21, or require 10+ to succeed. And this gap widens even more at higher levels.

Has this been a problem in playtest? Or do many spells simply allow no save?

* Since I'm not a playtester, I'm making several implicit assumptions here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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Jackal42

First Post
Actually saving against a spell is based on the level of the spellcaster, not the level of the spell cast. So the target number in your example would be 21, not 17 and that's just about on target as far as I've seen.

Most checks like saves and disable traps, etc use the base 12/18 plus a level to set the target number (caster level, trap creator level, etc). So while the character's saves advance each level so does the target number (assuming the character is up against someone of equal level). :)
 

nsruf

First Post
Jackal42 said:
Actually saving against a spell is based on the level of the spellcaster, not the level of the spell cast. So the target number in your example would be 21, not 17 and that's just about on target as far as I've seen.

That makes perfect sense. I just saw an incorrect example somewhere else. Using caster level has the interesting additional effect that low level spells become more powerful as you level up, and thus remain more useful (unless they have a fixed HD cap like sleep).

Another question: how important is Int/Wis/Cha for spellcasting. Is there a minimum requirement to cast higher level spells? And is the modifier added to the target number for the save?
 

Turanil

First Post
Currently, what I like about this game, is the nostalgia value. Will I find back the good memories I have from games I had 15-20 years ago? It would be cool.

Some questions now: in 1e and 2e basic npcs were "zero-level" characters, while in 3e they have special weak and simple classes. How is this implemented in C&C? Will we have to invent/convert some npc classes? BTW: I have also been thinking of converting some of the classes from Arcana Unearthed (by Monte Cook) to C&C (at least 4 or 5 of them). :)
 

aztecman

First Post
Had our first C&C game last night...

Ok -

So I rounded up a bunch of my players and had our first C&C game last night. It was a module I created myself just for this very purpose.

A few things:

The party consisted of a Half Elven Knight, an Elven Assassin (pretending to be a rouge) and a brother sister pair of 1/2 orc monks. I figured, what the heck, I'll go with it.

Anyhoo, several things that came up during the game.

the whole 12/18 thing for saves was kinda wonky. Even though I was assigning different difficulty #'s for attributes checks (1-3 typically), players were either passing by yards and bounds or failing horribly, pitifully.

What's the mechaninc for spot or search? I kept wanting to default to d20 for this.

Crits? We must have rolled about 20-25 "20's" that night alone!

Also, some ofthe players (mainly one of the monks) was bitching that at first level no one got to see how any of their abilities worked, he suggested we start at 2nd. Too bad I said.

One player - the assassin, said "what's so special about this game? It's just like D&D" (he's a big fan of D20) We spent quite a bit of time discussing (afterwards) on what exactly what C&C was trying to accomplish and who it was marketed to. Most players agreed that without any other sort of hook - besides the 12/18 thing and the ways saves are done, there's really isn't any reason to play C&C instead of AD&D.

One player did like the "subtle changes" made to the game, like d12 HD for monks or the knight class.

the whole "no feats/skills/etc" thing kinda bothered them. Some players did not like being limited by class (these were the D20 ones).

one player did not like the cyclical initiative. They kept wanting to roll once and keep it for the whole combat. Additionally, they didn't understand why the dex modifier was not added to initiative.

Additionally, I read someplace that the DEX modifier is not applied to AC when being attacked by missle weapons - is that right?

WIS check for surprise? Is that a contested roll????

Players also claimed their AC's were too low. Average was about 13 or 14.

They didn't like the 3D6 for abilities. They wanted a more traditional 4D6 keep the highest 3 or one suggested we do 4D4+2 for abilities as an option.

Others thought you still need to use minis as the rules were written to include 5 foot steps and the breakdown for moving.

I felt, with the "tactical combat" from D20 removed, it played alot faster. For example were did about 10 encounter areas in a 6 hour session. In D20 we would normally only do about 4 or 5 tops. So that was a plus.

All in all , everyone liked it, but couldn't understand why we would choose to play this game C&C over D&D (like AD&D) or something like that. Which, now thinking about it - I have to agree. While I like C&C, I think more questions and glitches will be answered with the boxed set or the PH. They really liked the module so far and are about halfway done.

I really hope that the boxed set module has a fair amount of DC and saves info as I was not sure how to assign them.

Speaking of which - when's it shipping? Additionally, the new 4.19 rules? ETA on that?

Maybe tomorrow I'll post a play by play of the adventure to show you how they're doing.....

Ciao,
Bryan
 

Turanil

First Post
Thanks for this review! Mmmmh... I was already dubious about the 12/18 thing, and you confirm my fears... Well, they told me the boxed set would be shipped by the end of the august or september (I cannot remember which one).

A question:

I felt, with the "tactical combat" from D20 removed, it played alot faster. For example were did about 10 encounter areas in a 6 hour session. In D20 we would normally only do about 4 or 5 tops. So that was a plus.

What do you mean with "tactical combat" removed? Since I don't find everything pertaining to squares, reach, etc., not that slowing the game, I would like to know about what exactly you did remove. (I am greatly interested in something that enables to play more in the same number of hours!).
 

Jackal42

First Post
There is no minimum attribute needed to cast spells. You gain a limited number of bonus spells for having a higher attribute in your spellcasting stat. And by default the attribute modifier is not added to the target number for a saving throw but it easily could be if your CK so desired. ;)

C&C will use the zero level NPC method of the older D&D editions. If you want your local barkeep to have some experience with a blade make him a 1st level fighter instead. Remember, classes in C&C are not supposed to represent occupations, but rather archetypes. So the above barkeep doesn't have to be an ex-adventurer to be a 1st level fighter. He's simply a man who has seen some combat in his life and has a working knowledge of fighting men and their tools (sounds like most any innkeeper or barkeep to me anyway). ;)

And to say a few words about the above mentioned play session:

Remember that attribute checks are not part of the 12/18 system. An attribute check is 1d20 + attribute modifier + character level. The target number is totally ad-hoc and has nothing to do with the stat being prime or not. So using attribute checks to test the 12/18 system isn't going to work too well. Those checks are supposed to have calculated target numbers on the fly. If a 1st level fighter with an 18 strength and a 20th level fighter with an 18 strength both want to move the same boulder and the CK decides he wants it to be very tough and for both characters to have the same chance (say he wants either of them to pass on an 18 or higher) he has to set the target number as 22 for the 1st level fighter (18 + 3 str bonus +1 level bonus) and as 41 for the 20th level fighter (18 + 3 str bonus + 20 level bonus). Yup, different target numbers for different characters trying the same thing. It's a new concept but it does lend some interesting flexibility to the CK's job. :)

There are no search or spot checks in C&C. I've always liked the roleplaying way of doing it better anyway. A character tells you what and how he wants to search. If he finds where you've hidden an item then he finds it, no roll needed. For spot you can simply use surprise checks or a wisdom attribute check (or several other ideas).

There will be no critical hit system in the PHB. But adding your favorite one shouldn't be at all difficult.

What's so special about this game is something that everyone is going to have to answer for himself. My answers would be in the dozens but a few of my favorites are; simple and durable rules, well balanced races, well balanced classes, rangers and bards that don't cast spells, a system that lends itself to faster and more story focused play.

The lack of skills and feats is also on my personal list of reasons to play C&C. ;)

Initative is easy enough to do in d20 style if you wish but I prefer the roll every round method. Accounts for the fact that you're not playing a turn based video game and that the action is flowing.

If their AC was too low then they need to buy better armor. ;) The C&C armor class system isn't really different from any other edition.

If the CK feels that 4d6 drop the lowest is better that doesn't break the game but having a base of 3d6 allows those who want something different to build instead of having to strip down and then rebuild. That's the mission statement of C&C after all. The Trolls start simple and solid and let each group make the game their own.

Assigning target numbers to class skill checks (rogue climb ability for instance) and for saves is pretty simple. Everything is spelled out except any situational modifiers the CK might want to add. Attribute checks, on the other hand, can be a bit more tricky but it's not difficult to get the hang of those either.

As for when the boxed set is going to ship I have no idea...I would imagine very soon but that's just my own guess. :)
 

aztecman

First Post
Thanks Jackal!

Thanks for the feedback on the play session Jackal - hopefully that will correct a few things I did wrong.

Turanil - What I meant was that I played like "old school" - no map, no minis or counters. It was all imagination in their heads. I had my map behind the screen and I just kept track of where they were from there. D20 is too dependant on maps and minis - In our group, it's like combat grinds to a halt as we begin the "D&D Boardgame" of moving minis and keeping track of 5' steps, AO's, tactical maneuvers, etc. Since the players try to exploit "every friggin square" in a D20 game for tactical advantage - I removed it. It makes the game more about the story then about the combat. For some, this works. for others it may not. I am an old school DM back from 82 so it was just like old times. We had alot of fun. All of them said they really liked the story - the rule quips were minor (however, some felt it difficult to get out of the d20 mind set though)

Ciao,
Bryan
 

Acid_crash

First Post
Maybe it's just cuz I just woked up and all an me half-orc brain is confusing me, but what you sayin 'bout the two fighters wanting to move the same rock and having such disparate difficulty levels don't make any sense at all. Can you expwain to this half-orc mind wutz you is tryin to say?
 

Turanil

First Post
Still another question...
I in fact prefered 2e where 1 round = 1 minute, instead of 1 round = 6 second in 3e. IMO there are many things that you would not be able to do in a so short time in real life. What about it in Castles & Crusades? Is 1 round = 1 minute or 6 seconds?

(BTW: 1 round = 6 seconds has some advantages that I may take advantage of to speed my d20 games in the future. Thus if the players slow the game in trying to exploit "every friggin square" in a D20 game for tactical advantage, I will show them my watch and say: you have 6 seconds to move and act. If you don't do it in 6 seconds you spend that round thinking about what to do, so now let the monster roll an attack die: it's their turn.)
 

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