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Castles & Crusades: Experiences?

pawsplay

Hero
What do you guys think of C&C? I've been eyeing it a while.

It appears to have several strengths:
It's simple
Old school look and feel
Able to play other retro-style games on-the-fly using naive conversions

And several weaknesses:
Little cutomization of PCs, other than picking a name
Heavy-handed niche protection
Doesn't seem to have much third party support of its own
Doesn't seem to have lots of suggestions on how to handle more creative PC actions

Would you recommend it? Do you agree with my first glance? Is there an edition one should prefer?
 

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His Dudeness

First Post
I've DMed it for a while and It's kind of bland. As an alternative to something that has old school feel with new school mechanics I preffer BFRP.
 

Treebore

First Post
You need to run it. Between selecting Primes, the class abilities, and the other rules characters are very flexible and capable of trying to do anything.

Plus if you hate how higher level PC's seem to almost become "auto save" in other versions of D&D you will like how C&C keeps players adrenaline going with them being afraid to make saves, especially when it comes to non Prime saves.

Add in how easy it is to house rule C&C, you will soon be able to make your perfect RPG that you have always wanted.

Sure, C&C uses archetypes type of classes, but nothing prevents you from using the C&C Netbook of classes or adapting any class variant you like to C&C.
So it isn't that C&C does "niche protection", it is just that your job/class is more clearly defined. Use the class and a half rules in the 4th printing and you can make decent hybridized classed PC's as well, rather than build such classes completely from scratch.


If you want more specific help with working out such things come visit the C&C forums.
 

pawsplay

Hero
One aspect of niche protection I noticed were the dire warnings not to let characters do things that are defined as class abilities for other classes. There really isn't an equivalent to the low DC climb check, or using a cross-class skill.
 

Treebore

First Post
One aspect of niche protection I noticed were the dire warnings not to let characters do things that are defined as class abilities for other classes. There really isn't an equivalent to the low DC climb check, or using a cross-class skill.

Yes, but if you make another class that has the same ability they get to add their level too. In C&C your not going to have a Fighter keeping up with a thief at climbing walls, picking pockets, opening locks, etc... Only the thief is going to get really good at doing that.

HOWEVER, in C&C, they can try picking the locks, etc... based on having DEX prime or not, so a DEX Prime character will be decent at picking low CL locks and such.

So there is not complete niche protection. There is a fair amount of overlap at low levels, but as the game gets above 4th level the thief is going to get much better than everyone else at what it is their class does.

Now if you want a fighter able to be a thief C&C definitely is not going to be a game you like. If you want a game where a character can select their DEX as a Prime and be good at being a low level thief, then C&C may be the perfect game for you.
 

paigeoliver

First Post
I really enjoyed running the system, although my players thought it was a little too bland. There are actually quite a few adventures for it that you can buy. It is also basically stat block compatible with pre 3rd edition D&D.
 

Treebore

First Post
Bland? Maybe you should try some of my house rules to spice it up, looks like a lot, but in play it hardly slows down play:


CLASSES:

Fighters:
They get to use their BtH to make combat related SIEGE checks, plus their specialization bonuses when using that weapon. All other classes use just their BtH.

Fighters can also learn to master (specialize) a new weapon every 3 levels. So at 4th, 7th, 10th, and so on they can master a new weapon. They only get the +1 to hit and damage. These additional weapons never increase to +2 like your first weapon does. Unless you use one of your additional "mastery's" to do so. So if you want to be +2 with the bow, you can use your 4th and 7th level mastery to do so. To be clear, the 7th level bonus can only be used to up your fist chosen weapon to +2, or you keep it at +1 and chose a different weapon to have a +1. You do not increase your first weapon to +2 and pick an additional weapon to +1, you do not get both.

Combat Dominance is now "Mass Combat Dominance". They get multiple attacks per round whenever the Fighter is taking on 3 or more opponents at one time. Irregardless of HD. 1 attack per opponent, this replaces any other attacks.

Edit: Beginning of nocking two arrows rules:

1d20+12 to knock two arrows
then two attacks at -6
1d20+9 to knock two arrows
then two attacks at -9
Check 1d20+12 for extra attack
1d20+6 to knock two arrows
then two attacks at -12

Clerics:
Clerics can do SIEGE checks similar to Wizards.
Clerics can spontaneously convert spells to damage healing spells (IE restore HP's)
Clerics get to add their level to damage healing spells, which increases the amount healed up to the maximum. For example Cure Light cast by a 5th level Cleric rolls 1d8+5 up to a maximum of 8, not 13.

Rangers:
Get to choose an enemy at 6th level and every other level thereafter. IT must be pretty specific, such as Ogres, Frost Giants, Vampires, Worshippers of the "Forest Burners", etc... This allows you to add your bonus to all SIEGE checks against them, including attack maneuvers, AND add your level to the Damage if they didn't qualify for your marauder before. CK approval, of course.

Druids:
They can go one of two paths, animal or elemental. Either path gains the ability to become a Treant at 9th level. At 6th level you choose which path you will follow. Animal can choose animal forms to chang into. Elementalists choose one fo the 4 elementals, earth, air, fire, and water. One form at 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level, and you get the Treant form too. So by 9th level a Druid will be able to assume each elemental form and a Treant form, or 4 animal forms and a treant form.

Your HD and HP will be the same in your animal and elemental form. In animal/elemental form your BtH will equal your HD, and you gain the movement and special defenses of the animal/elemental form you have. Your damage and attacks are the same as the Animal/Elemental form as well.

Animal choices are fixed, but can be changed via a 3 day ritual cleansing and rededication to a new "totem".

At 12th level you can assume each chosen form 2/day. It becomes 3/day at 18th.

Paladins:
When they gain the Smite Evil ability they can use it once per day per level. OR they can choose to have "religious enemy" under the same rules as the Ranger's "enemy". Then choose a new one every two levels, like the Ranger does. They can only do one or the other, not both Smite and Religious Enemy. To clarify "enemy" choice, as a Paladin I allow it to also add +2 to Damage, and you can track them as well. However to explain why you can Track them and nothing else we will call it a divine power that acts like a very specific "Locate Object/Person" spell that lasts while there is a physical trail that could be followed by a Ranger.

Assassins and Thieves:

Your BtH progresses as lvl - 2, so your BtH is 0 at first and second level, but increases by one every level thereafter.
Assassins can make a SIEGE check to do their death attack in one round. The check is TN 12 + level/HD of the target.
Poison Harvesting: Is a CL 3 for every Type/rank of the poison to be harvested. So CL 3 for Type 1, maxing out at CL 18 for type 6. These will be the default CL's for successfully distilling them as well. Failed rolls mean you accidentally poison yourself and must make the appropriate saves. Recipe's still give the +10 bonus, but such recipe's can only be made by Alchemists or Priests of a god of poisoning. The CL for making such a recipe is 10+2x Poison type/rank, so will range from CL 12 to 22.

Thieves can make Type 1 to type 3 poisons as the Assassin, after that they can still make Type 4 and stronger poisons, but no longer add their level, but can use recipes to aid them. Thieves do need to make DEX checks to apply poisons to weapons, etc...


Wizards:
SIEGE checks can be used to alter spells being cast. A SIEGE check can be made to change the energy type of a spell. For example, to change a fireball to a electric ball, ice ball, etc... you make a TN 12 check + your level to beat a CL = to the level of the spell. So to change the fireball to ice would be a CL 3, so beat TN 15.

Similar checks can be done to maximize damage, CL spell level +3

To double range, CL spell level +3

To increase number of targets effected, CL spell level +3 per additional target (example spell, Charm Person to effect two people instead of one)

Failure, in all cases, loses you the spell. Roll a natural 1 and pray for survival if it causes damage.

SPELL CASTERS:
A new class ability for ALL spell casters, except Paladins.

Divine/Arcane blasts. These are a pure energy attack that any spell caster can use every other round as long as they do not cast any spells on the round in between. Yes, this means all day long. This is because that round is a recharge/gather the power round. This attack requires a "To hit" roll versus the targets AC, but the casters BtH for purposes of this attack is equal to their level and its modified by their DEX. Damage is 1d4 per level of the caster and requires a "item" as the component for this ability. It costs 20 GP per dice of damage. Typically a cleric uses their Holy Symbol and Arcane Casters most frequently make a wand.

As usual, I do allow a SIEGE check to cast this every round, it will be CON based, and failed checks will cost a temporary loss of one CON point to simulate the exhaustive nature of wasting the energy as well as gathering it so quickly. The CL will equal the amount of dice you want to do for damage, and the base TN will always be 12, since this is now a "Class Ability" for all spell casters.

Lost CON is regained at 1 point per hour of rest, or from a Lesser Restoration.

SIEGE Checks:

As you probably guessed, I allow SIEGE checks to be used for a lot of things other than skills. They can be used by fighters to try and get extra attacks, to get an extra attack when you take an opponent down, to transfer points from your BtH to your damage roll, if you think of it, ask me if you can do it. If you have played 3E many of their feats are good ideas for SIEGE checks.

IMPORTANT: If you successfully use a SIEGE check frequently enough to perform a specific kind of action I will eventually, when I decide to do so, award it as a "signature move". This will mean that as long as your opponent is no more than 3 levels higher than you, or lower, you will not need to perform a SIEGE check to do the "signature move". You can have as many "signature moves" as I decide to award you with.

***I also allow all class abilities to be treated as if you have the relevant attribute as a Prime.

These are cut out of my full house rules document, so may read choppy.
 


finarvyn

Explorer
I've played C&C for some time and I think it's a great system. It covers the main classes pretty well and gives each class something unique to do during an adventure. I find that it's streamlined enough for quick play and flexible enough that I can "house" rule as I like.

I never thought of it as "bland" but perhaps "traditonal." It combines some of the best features of 3E with an older edition philosophy.
 

GreyLord

Legend
C&C is made to integrate all systems of D&D. I personally have run games where 3.X and 4e were integrated and run side by side (Yes, C&C is that flexible if you take the time to do things right), as well as also being able to combine 3.X and AD&D or OD&D. It's comparable to when you took OD&D characters of AD&D characters and ran them or converted them to the other system.

Edit: No offenses to ANYONE here on my below comments, this is just what I've observed from personal experiences, and as I try to clarify...C&C is more dependant on the DM then anything else

My take is if one feels 3.X, or AD&D, or any version of D&D is bland, then C&C is. C&C DOES REQUIRE inventiveness, creativity, and spontaneity as it is old school in how it handles rules, and integration. Someone who doesn't have these things will also find C&C rather boring. In that light, it is very easy for some to have a very dull experience with C&C.

On the otherhand, due to it's simplicity, and how you can integrate systems, it can be the ideal system for open minded groups and players (those who will play other RPG's instead of being stuck on one RPG).

The main thing with C&C is that it is reliant upon a DM. When I say this (as most RPG's are reliant upon having a DM) is that if you do NOT have a good DM, your experience with C&C will probably be bad. C&C, more than any of the modern systems relies on having a DM that has all the above qualities (inventiveness, creativity, and spontaneity) as well as good story telling skills, and enthusiasm.

I personally prefer C&C as the integration system I use with other systems these days, and if I h ave a feel to combine several systems C&C is my default system.
 

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